Welcome to PatsFans.com

Turkish Troops Mass on Northern Iraq Border.

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by wistahpatsfan, Oct 22, 2007.

  1. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    There's no way a northern invasion of Iraq happens without the consent of the US. This is all part of the plan. Bush has heard Biden's plan for partition of Iraq and it appears that he might be thinking of it as a way ot for his party. Either that, or the White House is not paying attention to this impending invasion and, once again, is failing to take the Turks seriously. Meanwhile Condoi Rice is busy trying to broker a deal about the Palestinians by trying in vain to put together a "Summit" of the near east countries involved.

    My guess is the latter. The White House will once again demonstrate their nearly complete incompetence in foreign affairs and diplomacy. Kurds take it up the arse again from American indifference...this time from a new American president who criticized the last one for doing the same thing.

    Let the division of Iraq begin.
  2. fleabassist1

    fleabassist1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    3,102
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0


    Think congress will condemn them for Kurdish genocide in 100 years?
  3. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    The issue there is the PKK, which is a terrorist group. It's not the Kurds as whole necessarily, but you can see where the Kurds might not be doing enough to stop them from attacking Turkish targets and people. There's a sizable Kurdish population living in Turkey, and if anyone remembers, Kurds were considered the largest ethnic group not to have it's own country. The Turks don't want any of the Kurds living inside it's borders to get any idea's of pulling a Chechnya. The PKK wants to do just that. You can totally see where Turkey is coming from. The problem here is that both sides are "allies" (not the PKK, but Iraqi Kurds and Turkey), and we need both of them on our good side to help with current issues of importance. Ultimately, if the US doesn't get the Kurds to handle the PKK, Turkey will. A difficult decision has to be made here. One that could piss one side off. I'd like to think the right choice would be to move against the PKK.
  4. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    37,505
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -5

    No Matter What Happens Anywhere In This World Or In Our Galaxy Or For That Matter Anywhere In This F-cking Universe, It's "Bush's Fault"

    George Bush Killed Jesus

    :bricks:
  5. Turk

    Turk Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0


    That is a very accurate description / analogy, RW.
    If, we are all united in the war against terrorism, this is the time to prove it, to all allies.
  6. Turk

    Turk Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0


    Turkey will not invade N. Iraq.

    As of this morning, they have crosssed the border and are on the attack, in N. Iraq, wiping out terrorist camps. Once this mission is accomplished and the necessary message is sent/received, they will retreat.

    Don't forget the 1.5 million Iraqi Kurds that Turkey was a safe haven for, when Bush Sr. attacked Iraq and Saddam took revenge.
    They were welcomed with open arms, fed, sheltered for almost two years, in Turkey. The problem is with PKK, not the Iraqi or Turkish Kurds.
  7. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    I agree with you Turk, but my one point of contention is that crossing into Iraq is pretty much invading. I think they have every right to defend themselves mind you.
  8. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    Generally speaking, I agree. The situation isn't an easy one, which I think is understandable, but the bottom line is that the PKK is a terrorist organization, and Turkey has the right to defend it's citizens. You'd like to see it resolved diplomatically, or peacefully, but we're talking terrorists here, and that usually is a hard sell.
  9. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    37,505
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -5

    If this in any way HELPS AMERICA, Reid/Pelosi and the rest of those Democrat bastards will be against it.
    :bricks:
  10. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    37,505
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -5

    The "Genocide Thing" with the Armenians, why do some people still hold that against the Turkish people of today, it happened 95 years ago.

    The Germans raised some hell with the Jews only 60 some years ago and we are told not to hold it against todays Germans.

    The Japanese committed all kinds of barbaric acts against all kinds of people China & American and we are now told not to even call them "Japs".

    Why do some in this country still condem todays Turks for something that happened almost a hundred years ago :confused:

    Could this be called "Racism"
    :bricks:
  11. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    Please explain this contradiction.
    I coould care less what happens in N. Iraq or SE Turkey. Not my problem. I hope the Turks can act specifically and surgically without harming innocent civilians...I don't really think it affects what happens in the big picture, but we will all have to wait and see the outcome. I know one thing, if I'm a Kurd and I have even a sliver of national pride, I try to kill every single uniformed Turkish soldier I can. This is an illegal invasion...period. It might be right to a Turk, but all Kurds should feel pretty defenseless and humiliated by this.

    Where is the Coalition of the Willing?

    Also, what would happen if the Iranians decided to do the same thing on the Eastern border or the Syrians have had enough with the insurgents on the West border? What's good for Turkey is bad for Iran and Syria.

    More strange bedfellows and foreign policy contradiction. Never good for the US.
  12. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    19,531
    Likes Received:
    41
    Ratings:
    +45 / 0 / -2

    Actually, Harry, the idea is that we've never really gotten around to the Turkish/Armenian thing. We just say it happened, and Turkey gets very upset. We didn't say "and furthermore the Turks of today are to blame."

    I don't know much at all about the PKK. I know the Turks say they are terrorists, who make incursions into Turkey. I know the usual pundits here say the Turks are invading Iraq for no apparent reason.

    Aside from the "good for the goose, good for the gander" argument, I think the character of PKK provocations has quite a bit to do with the legality of the Turks action, insofar as international law means anything.

    If no central government is exercising sovereignty in Kurdish Iraq; and if Iraqi Kurds really are perpetrating acts of terrorism within Turkey; that indeed legitimizes Turkey's invasion. Basically, the weakness of the Iraqi government vis a vis its warring factions does point to the possibility of a central power vacuum in Iraq.

    Now tell me who is to police Kurdish Iraq, if, indeed, Kurdish factions are perpetrating crimes in Iraq?

    Again, I do not know the details of the Turks' claims. But I am also not so quick to believe in an open-and-shut case against Turkey, realizing that downplaying such incidents from the Iraqi Kurds is, in fact, in US interests.

    So yeah, I'm on the fence, pending further factfinding. If Kurds are acting cross-border, though, you can hardly fault the Turks for doing likewise.

    PFnV
  13. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    Why is it illegal on Turkey's part? If the PKK is killing Turkish citizens, and doing so from the safety of Kurdish/northern Iraq, and that nation doesn't do anything about it, doesn't Turkey have an obligation to defend itself? I'd expect them to deal with the matter diplomatically, but if Iraq/Kurdistan doesn't do didly about it, and more Turk men, women, and children are dying, then Turkey's gotta do what it's gotta do.
  14. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    What are we talking about when we say "Iraqi government"? Aren't we talking about Washington? What is the "Kurdish government"? Maybe Turkey thinks they have the right. I'll give you that, but so what? Why doesn't Turkey go to the UN? Aren't they and Iraq member countries? Like I said, I don't care and it doesn't matter.

    What matters is that the US is doing nothing. And that's the same as saying the Iraqis are doing nothing. No one did anything about the PKK and the Kurds have no means to do anything as far as I can tell. The big question is why has the White House done nothing to either secure the Northern border and control or wipe out the PKK? It appears that they don't care what happens and are willing to let the Turks take care of and even annex Iraqi Kurdistan. That way they jettison a big chunk of a bigger headache, making it easier to reign in the Shiites and Sunnis in the south.

    I'm just sayin'....
  15. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1


    The UN? :rofl:

    Anyhow, were the UN anything but a pension plan for socialists, I'd be in agreement with you. However, the UN is worth about as much as a US dollar in an international market. Which is very little. I really don't think the broader picture here is to allow Turkey to annex part of Iraq. First of all, I don't think that is Turkey's intention, and second, I don't think that would benefit the US in any way, shape, or form. I think the PKK might have some closet appologists inside the Kurdish government, and the US hasn't gone in to exterminte the PKK because of that. That's just my own personal feeling. I think they have to though, cuz Turkey isn't going to sit idley by while their citizens die. Was Israel wrong for going into Lebanon after it's citizens were being killed, and it's soldiers abducted?
  16. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    10,800
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    hahaha !!!.....NIce one!
  17. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    Yes, of course. Israel.....We all know how completely innocent Israel has been in their dealings with Lebanon. Always the victim...so anyways....


    No one knows much about the Turk-Kurd problem, do we? I begin by saying that we have no right interfering in ME affairs, as I'm sure you'll all agree :)rofl: ), but seeing how the retard in the White House has gone and invaded and assumed all control and defense of Iraq, I was just wondering why the Turks are left to contend with the Kurds? Why not let the Iranians deal with the Shiites and the Syrians deal with the Sunnis while we're at it? Is it because Turks are better than Syrians and Kurds? Aren't fascists in control of Turkey, too?

    PS:
    I was kidding about the UN....JEEZ!
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2007
  18. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    Oh, my UN laughing thing was aimed strictly at the UN, and not of you're mention of them. I know you're not a big fan of the UN. I wasn't poking fun at you.

    As for Israel, my mention of their move into Lebanon wasn't because Israel is the shining light of righteousness or anything. I merely pointed to that situation because it was fairly recent, and somewhat mirrors the Kurd/Turk issue. Israel doesn't always wear white, and I'll be the first to say so. I just felt that Israel was justified in moving into Lebanon in that particular incident, just like I think Turkey would be right to defend itself here. Again, that is generally speaking. I'm not a fan of Israel blowing up bridges and targeting infrastructure as they did.
  19. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,315
    Likes Received:
    19
    Ratings:
    +19 / 0 / -0

    So much for stabilizing the Mid east.. looks like a long run for the US.
  20. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    19,531
    Likes Received:
    41
    Ratings:
    +45 / 0 / -2

    As I said, I think the entire shootin' match rests on the validity of Turkey's claims about PKK terrorism and cross-border incursions. Of course, since "Free Kurdistan!" is not a press mantra, there's been very little attention to the Kurds' case, after the "no fly zone" era. Meanwhile, Turkey has been against an independent Kurdistan for the very reason that Turkish Kurds could be lured into attempting to add Turkish territory to such a state.

    I'm too tired to do the research I'd want to to pick a side here, just now.

    I'm fairly certain, however, that this isn't Israel's fault (or the fault of the "Israel Lobby," whatever that means on this particular day.)

    PFnV
  21. STFarmy

    STFarmy Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,677
    Likes Received:
    6
    Ratings:
    +6 / 0 / -0

    Ha! Good one.
  22. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    I gotcha on all that.
    Problem is that too often, we look at events and make judgements on them without seeing the issue in wider context. History and insignificant (in the big picture) differences like religion and border disputes have a lot to do with what's happening. This isn't just popping up. Like PFinVa, I can't pick sides, and don't care to.

    My big take on this is how thinly stretched our forces are in Iraq dispite the White House claims that they have some sort of humanitarian interest in Iraq. If so, why are the Turks having their way at the north border?

    ...and as soon as I give a sh-t, I'll try to do some research...unless PFinVa beats me to it, I hope.
  23. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    19,531
    Likes Received:
    41
    Ratings:
    +45 / 0 / -2

    Come on man, football is on...
  24. Turk

    Turk Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Well, actually it is our problem, FTW, beacuse we have made it so.

    We have invaded a country, opened a can of worms, and now that we are helpless in assisting an ally getting attacked by some of those worms, we are smack in the middle of it, whether you happen to like it or not.

    The facts are:

    1. PKK is a terrorist organization, and it is listed as such, by our government on our terrorist organizations list. They are a marxist / seperatist group with as much legitimacy as a Mexican Marxist terrorist / seperatist group would have in TX or CA.

    2. There is no country called Kurdistan.
    There is Iraq, and in N. Iraq, there is a high concentration of Kurds, as well as the Turkomen as the second largest ethnic group and then the Arabs.
    The puppet local government in N. Iraq which is all Kurdish, has been the recipient of most of our aid, military and financial while taking no stand whatsoever against the PKK camps in N. Iraq.

    3. PKK terrorists have been crossing the border into Turkey, from their camps in N. Iraq, committing all kinds of cowardly, violent terrorist acts and then crossing back, into the safety of their camps in N. Iraq.
    Meanwhile, Turkey has been patiently expecting her ally, the US, to act even handedly and wipe out terrorism in N. Iraq, simply because that's what she was promised, by us. Even after the latest series of attacks, Rice's comments were very supportive, complimenting the restraint shown by Turks.

    4. Promise after promise have failed and the death toll has now exceeded 100 in the past 30 days alone. How much more patience can you expect from the Turks? The Turkish official request (and now demand) has always been cooperation from the US, and Iraqi Governments. Even last week, they demanded from Barzani and Talabani, that a joint, united force be formed against terrorism. The N. Iraqi Kurdish leders response was that they simply had no military to spare, and that they simply did not have what it took. So, the aggressive, violent image of the Turkish response is just imaginary. They have been more than patient and civil, asking all involved parties to be involved in what is marketed as a united front against the same enemy, terrorism. They have been asking all involved to walk the walk, is that too much to ask?

    5. Turkey has no intention to invade and conquer N. Iraq. That absurd claim is just an attempt to smear what is every country's right to defend itself.
    Turkey opposed the occupation by the US and now it wants to be the occupier? Please! Turkey wants no part of it. No violence carried out against its citizens, is what she is after.

    I am shocked by your words describing what you would do if you were a Kurd in N. Iraq. So, by the same standard then, are you not calling all Arabs, Kurds, Turkomen, not to mention Afghans to arms against our soldiers?

    By the way, the legitimacy of this Turkish case against the PKK, has been supported by all neighbors, Syria, Iran, Russia (and now the US). They all disagree with you.

    All we are doing at the moment is asking the Turks to give us more time with the Kurdish leaders of the North so that we may exercise our due influence on them and get them to act responsibly and even handedly.

    If we are against terrorism, if this is indeed humankind's WOT (you are either with us or against us), then let's have an honest united front against terror, everywhere in the world.




    Last edited: Oct 23, 2007
  25. Turk

    Turk Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0


    Harry,
    I have to mark this date and time on my calendar...
    Beacuse I could not agree more.

    And that is something I never thought I would say to ya :)
  26. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    Well, not exactly Turk. This problem with the PKK has existed for decades, and was there long before we invaded Iraq.
  27. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,671
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    Are you friggin kidding me?

    "With us or against us"?

    I'm under no illusion I can have an objective discussion about Turks invading Kurdistan, Iraq with a poster named "Turk". On any other subject, you're really clear and objective and I enjoy discussing with you, but this one's out of bounds. IMO, you cannot be objective, and that's cool because I assume you have close ties and deep roots. No offense, really. It's like debating religion with my mother or talking to a Yankee fan about who's better, Sox or Yanks..
  28. Turk

    Turk Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    Yes, it is true that PKK has existed for decades but within the last twenty years, it had become what most other Marxist seperatist groups in the world had become, lost in obscurity for all practical purposes.

    Prior to the current administration in Turkey and Iraq, it was virtually non-existent. Isolated incidents here and there, nothing like the kind of (fire)power they have today. Back in 1999, We actually assisted Turks capture Ocalan, the PKK leader responsible for a death toll in excess of 15,000 and things had been relatively calm since then, with many democratic reforms and investments in SE Turkey, in the heavily Kurdish populated areas.

    And speaking of firepower, the fact that the captured PKK terrorists are carrying US made weapons is not sitting well with the Turks, either.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2007
  29. Turk

    Turk Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,072
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0


    Your statements while not responding to mine, are unfair, WPF.

    The "In this fight (WOT) you are either with us or against us" statement is quoted all over the world, as where America stands, that's been our policy.

    That's why I used it to make my point.

    As Americans, that's where we all stand, Dem or Repub. I hope.

    As to my objectivity or knowledge on this subject matter, again I disagree.
    Beacuse I grew up there, because I have firsthand knowledge / experience in what living with PKK and ASALA terrorism is like, having lost an uncle to it,
    I would think that my persepective should be a fresh one, for you.

    If you are willing to keep an open mind that is.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2007
  30. Real World

    Real World Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    26,287
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -1

    :mad: Now I take offense to that Wistah! [​IMG]

Share This Page