Trying to be unbiased on Vinatieri, but.....

[belichickaholic]

It's statements like that made as if they are fact that drive me nuts. In 2004 he had the third best KO distance average in his career. Coupled with the best PK percentage in his illustrious career. And it's not his decision how many kicks to attempt at 50+. That's Bill's, and one he will very seldom make unless he has no other alternative.

This was always about the Patriots unwillingness to commit to a guy whose agent, who had a somewhat unholy alliance with this FO, may have led the team to believe he could be had without a long term committment over the last 10. I guess he was wrong which is why he (and his replacement lackey) got fired.

This FO and ownership leaked to it friends in the local media for months that Adam wasn't going anywhere. That led most teams with kicker needs to believe there was no point persuing him. When he got to GB they couldn't get a number out of his agent which is the only reason he left there without an offer. But that was also when he finally smartened up and cut the cord with the Cornish group. And I for one don't blame him a bit - I guess because unlike some here I'm willing to acknowledge my own inclination to be vindictive when I think I'm being disrespected or taken advantage of. Adam never did anything but make BB's life easier from the day he arrived as HC. On and off the field and in the locker room. An almost unheard of PK acknowledged by this FO as a core player and leader. When guys deliver as Adam did they shouldn't have to grovel.

If the Patriots believed the other tripe about rankings (which they don't unless it suits their purposes in negotiations) they would not have been prepared to keep him here at a $2.5M+ cap hit for 2006 and purportedly beyond. They were just playing coy with a guy they thought they emotionally owned, and it backfired. That they were not given one last chance after two years of opportunity to get a real long term deal done is just too damn bad. Like BB always says, it's a business on both sides.

All that remains to be seen is whether his signing positively impacts his new team, I hope not - although he is saving them a million and a half and that KO roster spot Vanderjerk could not fill either at the very least right out of the gate. And whether a rookie or a retread with issues or both can kick successfully and consistently this year let alone long term in a venue most kickers rank as one of the toughest in the league remains to be seen.

Is it at all possible that Adam had priced himself out of the market and that's why no teams were calling him? Hadn't several other kickers signed right out of the gate in March or quickly thereafter? Green Bay heard how much he wanted and said No Thanks?

It sounds like you are accusing an NFL agent of not looking out for the best interest of his client and I have a hard time believing that. The agent would have little to gain and everything to lose if that were actually the case. Maybe I read what you wrote incorrectly and if that's the case, I apologize in advance.

IMWO, Polian and Dungy were under a great deal of criticism since they let go of James. They felt the pressure and that's why they were willing to send a boat load of money to Adam. ( also, to stick it to the Pats )

That article this morning sounded like Adam was just sitting back and laughing about the fact that Pioli found out about it on a ticker!

Almost Lawyeresque!!

Note to Adam STFU!!!

 

[ilduce06410]

Everyone Remembers the kick againt da steelers....

Everyone's remembering the kick against the Steelers and forgetting that none of the Colts' other playoff losses have ever been due to the FG kicker. And if Bettis hadn't fumbled the Colts would have lost that one by more than a FG too.

and the kick was wide right by freaking 10-12 feet, mon.
but i also remember a missed kick againstpatriots, up here, in september 2004.
and a win-or-lose kick against the dolphins in december 2001 that lost a playoff game.
or the tampa bay game on december 8, 2002, when he was wide right on a 40-yarder in overtime. A penalty gave Vanderjagt a second chance. and he kicked THAT one off the right goal post from 29 yards.
where he went wide right on
BTW vanderjagt is already refusing to do kickoffs in dallas. i bet parcells loves that,

 

[richpats]

It's statements like that made as if they are fact that drive me nuts.

Vinatieri had a higher % of touchbacks in '05 than '04. Last year he had 10 in 81 kickoffs (12.3%), in 2004 he had 6 in 94 (6.4%). Getting touchbacks is very important in the kicking game since it limits the return team's ability to get decent field position. IMO Vinatieri was simply giving opponents too many opportunities on returns in 2004, as evidenced by 86 returns in 94 kickoffs (91%), that IMO is considered a liability. And yes, he did have a higher TB % and had a lower % of returned kicks in 2005 - that IMO is considered improvement.

 

[spacecrime]

His kickoffs were a liability in '04

It's statements like that made as if they are fact that drive me nuts. In 2004 he had the third best KO distance average in his career.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anything you said, but these two statements (yours and Richpats) are unrelated. Saying that AV's kickoffs were among his best does not mean they were at a level that made them an asset.

I kicked a little, and can tell you that my career best kicks would definately be a liability in the NFL.

The questions are: What was AV's average kickoffs in 2004? What was the average of the next 3-4 top-paid kickers? What was the average of the top 25% kickers? What was the average of all kickers in 2004?

Answers to these questions, which alas I do not have, will show if AV's 2004 kickoffs were an asset or not.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Is it at all possible that Adam had priced himself out of the market and that's why no teams were calling him? Hadn't several other kickers signed right out of the gate in March or quickly thereafter? Green Bay heard how much he wanted and said No Thanks?

Nope. GB's former kicker Longwell, who has struggled a bit with them of late and who they (and all the experts) felt was the second best FA kicker on the market after Adam, signed with the Vikings on day 1 of FA for 5/$10 and a $3M signing bonus. Just a half million total under the exisitng benchmark contract that Janakowski (who has almost reached the point of being more trouble that he was worth to Oakland) signed in 2004. And the Eagles had given Akers an extension and a $3M bonus at the tail end of 2005. Ditto Rackers with AZ (and he had previously sucked until his second season in the desert).

It sounds like you are accusing an NFL agent of not looking out for the best interest of his client and I have a hard time believing that. The agent would have little to gain and everything to lose if that were actually the case. Maybe I read what you wrote incorrectly and if that's the case, I apologize in advance.

GB's GM is on record about their being prepared to make him the highest paid kicker but they couldn't get a figure (years/dollars) out of his agent while Adam was in for his visit. That agent works for Adam's former suspended agent, who has long been BB's personal attorney. And an agency that represented several Patriots players over the last six seasons. So their were possibly some underlying conflict of interest issues and some quid pro quo at work.

IMWO, Polian and Dungy were under a great deal of criticism since they let go of James. They felt the pressure and that's why they were willing to send a boat load of money to Adam. ( also, to stick it to the Pats )

Adam's deal is costing them less than what they were paying Vanderjerk on the cap last season. A lot less - almost by half. And that's not counting the $300K+ and roster spot they were expending on a KO specialist. Adam has seldom missed a kick in a dome (just 0'for in Reliant) and has never missed in the RCA Dome. This was a NO BRAINER for the Colts. Should have been a no brainer for the Cowboys too but Parcell's had convinced himself that Adam wasn't going anywhere and he wasn't gonna lose a negotiation to BB. Unfortunately for him that left him overpaying a 36 year old jerk who can't KO to add to his collection of problem children for 2006. Some like to do it the hard way.

That article this morning sounded like Adam was just sitting back and laughing about the fact that Pioli found out about it on a ticker!

Almost Lawyeresque!!

Note to Adam STFU!!!

I don't think he was laughing - I think he wanted to stay just not on their terms and after they spent 2 years acting like retaining him was not a legit concern he grew very disenchanted with them on a business level. Not that they didn't want him, just that they behaved as if he wouldn't ever leave. I'm sure he appreciated that there was more than a small wave shock reverberating through the Razor when that ticker spewed out his signing. Was part of his decision grounded in proving to the Patriots that they were wrong about his market and his resolve - you bet it was. Brings to mind the old adage, don't get mad, get even.

Adam is a Colt now. Just like Willie is a Brown. They are under no obligation to STFU unless someone who now signs their paychecks asks them to.

Neither has uttered what I'd consider to be an unkind (let alone irrational) word about the franchise or the fans or Belichick himself since leaving. I wish I could say the same for their former fans.

 

[shmessy]

I don't think he was laughing - I think he wanted to stay just not on their terms and after they spent 2 years acting like retaining him was not a legit concern he grew very disenchanted with them on a business level. Not that they didn't want him, just that they behaved as if he wouldn't ever leave. I'm sure he appreciated that there was more than a small wave shock reverberating through the Razor when that ticker spewed out his signing. Was part of his decision grounded in proving to the Patriots that they were wrong about his market and his resolve - you bet it was. Brings to mind the old adage, don't get mad, get even.

Adam is a Colt now. Just like Willie is a Brown. They are under no obligation to STFU unless someone who now signs their paychecks asks them to.

Neither has uttered what I'd consider to be an unkind (let alone irrational) word about the franchise or the fans or Belichick himself since leaving. I wish I could say the same for their former fans.

Sadly, I have to agree with you. If I were Adam in those circumstances I, too, would tell BB/Pioli to shove it.

That being said, I belive the Patriots got him (or used him - whatever way you want to look at it) for his 10 best years and that the Colts are grievously mistaken if they think that the next five will be similar. The man has had a bad back the past 2 years. A bad back tends to be a chronic situation, especially for a kicker with the type of motion they must constantly repeat.

 

[Clonamery]

Neither has uttered what I'd consider to be an unkind (let alone irrational) word about the franchise or the fans or Belichick himself since leaving. I wish I could say the same for their former fans.

They both performed in a Pats uniform that made us all proud of both of them. And I have no problem with 'business.'

But we fans aren't giving interviews with any of the Boston Globe Beat writers so the platform and manner in which we speak is what it is......not an edited, calculating, give me a few paragraphs while I explain my side and at the same time I kiss the fans of NE's collective *ss.

I'm sure his wife isn't cryiing about what some fans write now.....

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anything you said, but these two statements (yours and Richpats) are unrelated. Saying that AV's kickoffs were among his best does not mean they were at a level that made them an asset.

I kicked a little, and can tell you that my career best kicks would definately be a liability in the NFL.

The questions are: What was AV's average kickoffs in 2004? What was the average of the next 3-4 top-paid kickers? What was the average of the top 25% kickers? What was the average of all kickers in 2004?

Answers to these questions, which alas I do not have, will show if AV's 2004 kickoffs were an asset or not.

No, that's not quite the way it works. A guy who routinely kicks 65+ in a dome or warm weather climate (as does Adam routinely when he visits those kinds of venues) is not gonna average 63 (which was Adam's 2004 ave.) when he's KO 8 games a season in one of the worst kicking venues in the league not to mention in a primarily cold weather division.

Rackers for example averaged 68 on kis kickoffs over the last 2 years (Adam booted 6 in AZ for a 70 average in 2004). Of course before that in 3 years in Cincy AND his first in AZ he averaged below 59. (Gotta wonder about a dramatic change like that beyond venue too.) Two highly compensated cold weather kickers - Akers KO numbers are nearly identical to Adam's, while Longwell's were always substantially shorter. Elam hasn't handled KO's in Denver in 3 years, but his best numbers (65) from several years ago are the same numbers Adam routinely puts up in Denver whenever he gets to kick in that thin air. Adam has never dropped below 60 season average in 10 seasons which is about the point at which teams begin to question a guys KO ability (to land inside the 10).

The kicking game is about reasonable consistency and having confidence when you make decisions as a HC that your guy is being honest and if he says it's makeable it is, and if he has any kind of problem impacting his kicking, he can be relied on to get it taken care of ASAP. I'd bet that was part of what led Gruden to toss Automatica in mid season in 2004. Just like the lack of clutch, combined with the inability to KO even for a dome team, combined with his A-hole arrogant personality, is what led Polian to let Vanderjerk go.

And because of all of those variables there is only one kicker currently active who is seriously projected to be the second kicker to enter the HOF. The one we let walk off to Indy.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Sadly, I have to agree with you. If I were Adam in those circumstances I, too, would tell BB/Pioli to shove it.

That being said, I belive the Patriots got him (or used him - whatever way you want to look at it) for his 10 best years and that the Colts are grievously mistaken if they think that the next five will be similar. The man has had a bad back the past 2 years. A bad back tends to be a chronic situation, especially for a kicker with the type of motion they must constantly repeat.

I believe his back problems were in 2002-2003. He worked on it (and worked through it) and there haven't really been any concerns since that I am aware of. Philly signed David Akers to an extension complete with $3M signing bonus last December as he was trying to come back from the kickers arch enemy, a torn hammy. Loyalty is a two way street or it's a dead end.

I don't doubt Adam's best years may have been behind him here, but I still think he was light years better than any of the available alternatives. And would likely have remained so for the next couple of seasons anyway. Otherwise why would our resident geniuses been willing to keep him the highest paid kicker in the league (just minus any sort of concrete long term guarantee)?

In Indy he will only appear to get better kicking in ten or so domed games and fewer cold weather venues. Hopefully he won't have an opportunity to make the most of that situation from a team standpoint. And hopefully his replacement or replacements here won't have an opportunity to make the worst of our situation from a team standpoint. That is one reason we really need Branch to get his ass back to work sooner than later.

 

[jimmyjames]

I thinik this has more to do with his move than anything. Adam has said all along that he wanted to finish his career with a domed or warm weather team as a means to prolong his career. He has pretty much two tracks to the Hall of Fame-His SB and playoff performances and total points scored/years in the league.

The contract the Pats offered and what the Colts gave him are really not all that different (about $200K of real money if I recall correctly). He really had nothing to gain by staying in NE, even WHEN the Pats win a couple more Super Bowls under Brady and BB, it is unlikely AV would play such a mythical role that he did in the first two, and he would start to lose some of the luster as the legend of Brady and Belichick continues to grow. Plus it's cold here and we play cold weather teams outdoors a lot more often so any decline in skills is going to be magnified. Lastly, I just plain think it's really stressful to play pro sports in the Boston area. the media sucks and fans really only accept perfection. If you were the golden child for 10 years it can't be easy to know you are not going to enjoy the limelight much longer before people start calling for the shiney new thing...Bledsoe and Milloy anyone?

So, onto Indy...8 games a year in a dome, plus another three division away games in a relativley warm climate, consistent playoff contender, blindly loyal fans, minimal media scrutiny, throw in a little WWE style drama about joining the dark side and IF, just IF Adam plays any kind of role in getting the Colts a SB win...HE IS A GOD and the path to Canton just a lot smoother.

Can't blame him for wanting to take that chance. But I will be yelling "MISS IT" at the TV on 11/5

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I thinik this has more to do with his move than anything. Adam has said all along that he wanted to finish his career with a domed or warm weather team as a means to prolong his career. He has pretty much two tracks to the Hall of Fame-His SB and playoff performances and total points scored/years in the league.

The contract the Pats offered and what the Colts gave him are really not all that different (about $200K of real money if I recall correctly). He really had nothing to gain by staying in NE, even WHEN the Pats win a couple more Super Bowls under Brady and BB, it is unlikely AV would play such a mythical role that he did in the first two, and he would start to lose some of the luster as the legend of Brady and Belichick continues to grow. Plus it's cold here and we play cold weather teams outdoors a lot more often so any decline in skills is going to be magnified. Lastly, I just plain think it's really stressful to play pro sports in the Boston area. the media sucks and fans really only accept perfection. If you were the golden child for 10 years it can't be easy to know you are not going to enjoy the limelight much longer before people start calling for the shiney new thing...Bledsoe and Milloy anyone?

So, onto Indy...8 games a year in a dome, plus another three division away games in a relativley warm climate, consistent playoff contender, blindly loyal fans, minimal media scrutiny, throw in a little WWE style drama about joining the dark side and IF, just IF Adam plays any kind of role in getting the Colts a SB win...HE IS A GOD and the path to Canton just a lot smoother.

Can't blame him for wanting to take that chance. But I will be yelling "MISS IT" at the TV on 11/5

Exactly. The only real difference in the contract was in the structure, and the signing bonus. Colts deal basically guaranteed him 3 if not 4 seasons. Pat's didn't guarantee anything beyond this season - provided something horrific didn't befall him before opening night (vets with 4+ years have their salary guaranteed once the season starts). In Indy he's working for the easily swayed midwestern fan still desperate (as opposed to demanding) for a championship. His stats will remain consistent or better for another 5 seasons in Indy, and on that team he will get the same media attention he got here via winning and posisbly more since the national media darling Colts get a lot more pro bowl and individual accolades attention. And he didn't have to beg, they bowled him over on the first offer (kinda like you had me at hello...).

Personally I will never boo him. And I may even still cheer him when his kicks are of no consequence to this team. Beyond that I wish him the best for all he did in 10 seasons here. I feel the same way about Pedro and Nomar, and would feel the same way about Tom if God forbid they ever piss him off to the extent he decides it's time to move on.

 

[spacecrime]

No, that's not quite the way it works.

Yeah, I'm afraid it is. Let me try again:

RP: AV's kickoffs were not an asset in 2004.

MLR: Wrong, 2004 was his best year.

Sorry, you need to connect the two somehow. You cannot disprove RP's stement with the MLR statement.

Again, it doesn't matter if 2004 was AV's best year or worst year. The relationship of 2004 to any and every other year AV kicked is irrelevant to RP's statment.

If you answer the questions in my original email, you can compare AV in 2004 to other kickers in 2004, and see if he was a kickoff asset in 2004 or whether he was not an asset in 2004.

I hear what you are saying about every year, but the question is 2004. If there were a six or 12 kickers doing kickoffs better than AV, he was holding his own, but hardly an asset.

I don't know the answer to those stats questions, but I know two undrelated statements when I hear them.

 

[spacecrime]

His stats will remain consistent or better for another 5 seasons in Indy

What rationale can you possibly have for this? Don't take this personally, but that MLR guy doesn't like it when people present opinion as fact.

It's statements like that made as if they are fact that drive me nuts.

 

[Flying Fungi]

What rationale can you possibly have for this? Don't take this personally, but that MLR guy doesn't like it when people present opinion as fact.

...mmmm....eruditious...

 

[spacecrime]

...mmmm....eruditious...

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