Trying to be unbiased on Vinatieri, but.....

[MagicMarker]

...is John Clayton nuts?

This is ESPN's intro to the Colts article:

"The biggest signing of the offseason was ... a kicker? For the Colts, the answer may prove true. John Clayton checks in from Colts camp, where hope lies in the foot of Adam Vinatieri."

His first topic is how important the Vinatieri signing is to the Colts?

What? This makes no sense! Yes, I agree Adam was Mr. Clutch and Vanderjagt is a jerk, but come on. How much can he really help them?

Vanderjagt has the highest field goal percentage in NFL history, and it is even higher outdoors than indoors. He missed two field goals last year in the regular season. Two!

Sure, he missed the critical one against the Steelers badly....but, if he made that one, would anybody expect that Vinatieri would be an upgrade at all?

And, let's face it...that field goal against the Steelers was, what, 46 yards? That is the outside of Adam's range. It's no lock that he makes that kick. Plus, Adam's last attempt for us, in the fourth quarter of the Denver game that would have cut the 11 point lead to 8 -- critical for us-- and he missed.

Don't get me wrong....I loved Adam and wished we'd signed him, but Vanderjagt was no slouch either. If Vinatieri is an upgrade, it's a very small one. Most likely, he'll make no difference in where the Colts finish at all.

So, am I wrong in thinking that those who write about the major upgrade the Colts made with Vinatieri and just getting way ahead of themselves?

 

[Alk]

I have said this before but had the Colts actually kept James then the Vinatieri signing could have been the signing to put them over the top. Vanderjagt flat out missed a kick that Vinatieri would have made at least 9 times out of 10. That being said, no way does Vinatieri fill the void that was left by James when he signed with the Cardinals. Peyton is in trouble this season and I'm going to love every minute of it as Vinatieri sits on the bench just waiting and hoping that offense can even get within field goal range.

 

[BelichickFan]

Everyone's remembering the kick against the Steelers and forgetting that none of the Colts' other playoff losses have ever been due to the FG kicker. And if Bettis hadn't fumbled the Colts would have lost that one by more than a FG too.

 

[broadwayjoe]

Everyone's remembering the kick against the Steelers and forgetting that none of the Colts' other playoff losses have ever been due to the FG kicker. And if Bettis hadn't fumbled the Colts would have lost that one by more than a FG too.

Very well put the blame will go on the kicker and the offensive line and any other unit but seldom is placed where it really belongs and true fans know where that is.

 

[BelizePats]

No, you're not wrong. I loved AV but I did not like the way he departed. His range on field goals and kick offs was slipping and I'll eat my hat if he only misses two for the Colts this fall.
Its no upgrade, except for maybe in the locker room.

Rich

 

[miDeuce]

It's because they have nothing else to give the Dolts love on (a media requirement these days) and what else can they point to that they did to upgrade their team this year? Tying up even more cap space in their #2 WR? I love how much the media is downplaying the loss of Edge. Everyone wants to write off Corey Dillon after one injury plagued season, yet they lose one of their mainstays completely and all the media can talk about is how Addai will make everyone forget about him. I highly doubt it. Yes replace Edgerrin James with an aging kicker and that will be the difference between another choke and the Super Bowl.

 

[BradyisGod]

It's because they have nothing else to give the Dolts love on (a media requirement these days) and what else can they point to that they did to upgrade their team this year? Tying up even more cap space in their #2 WR? I love how much the media is downplaying the loss of Edge. Everyone wants to write off Corey Dillon after one injury plagued season, yet they lose one of their mainstays completely and all the media can talk about is how Addai will make everyone forget about him. I highly doubt it. Yes replace Edgerrin James with an aging kicker and that will be the difference between another choke and the Super Bowl.

You're so right. This morning they were saying how Mungro and Dominic Rhodes racked up 1000+ yards when Edge was out. Of course, they didn't mention they were 6-10 or whatever record they had.

 

[Murphys95]

Actually, I buy into Clayton's claim, but for a different reason - because of the loss of Edgerrin James, I think the role of the kicker will be magnified in Indy. A quick glance at Indy's 2005 season shows that they didn't have one regular season game which came down to a field goal to win it. For the most part the Colts won going away last season.

With the loss of James, however, things will almost certainly be different in Indy this year. I can envision the Colts having a number of games that come right down the wire, games that would require a clutch kicker in order to win it.

In other words, the Colts offensive prowess may have been diminished by the loss of Edgerrin James, which in turn may lead to more close games, which ultimately leads to Vinatieri being a very important acquisition for them.

 

[MagicMarker]

Murphys95 -- Now I get back to my other point. Vanderjagt is the highest percentage kicker in NFL history, inside and outside. Even if the Colts are in more close games, how big of an upgrade be over the best percentage kicker ever?

 

[Yankees/Colts]

Everyone's remembering the kick against the Steelers and forgetting that none of the Colts' other playoff losses have ever been due to the FG kicker.

Uh, no.

Once again, Vanderjagt also lost the Miami playoff game. Manning drove them down the field to win, just like Brady did vs. the Rams, but Vanderjagt missed it. Vanderjagt also missed vs. the Pats which would have given the Colts home field advantage. Then in the Steeler game, Peyton drove the Colts down the field to win, just like Brady did vs. the Panthers, but Vanderjagt missed it. If he makes it, the Colts win the Superbowl. Vanderjagt missed as many big FGs as Vinatieri made. It's an easy job when your kicker actually makes them.

And if Bettis hadn't fumbled the Colts would have lost that one by more than a FG too.

And if when Brady fumbles the ball away to the other team in the snow, they let the team who recovers it actually keep it, the Patriots don't have a Superbowl victory.

And, let's face it...that field goal against the Steelers was, what, 46 yards? That is the outside of Adam's range.

Except against the Rams to win the Superbowl...

Vinatieri will kick 50 yarders indoors.

 

[miDeuce]

Vinatieri will kick 50 yarders indoors.

Lucky for us we're playing at Foxboro again this year.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

Vinatieri will kick 50 yarders indoors.

Completely untrue Adam has been unable to kick from 50 yards since the end of 2003 / early 2004. Even in warm weather conditions with no wind. Adam's leg is worn out for long distance kicks. Still doesnt mean he is a bad kicker. Just not a distance guy anymore.

 

[Yankees/Colts]

You're so right. This morning they were saying how Mungro and Dominic Rhodes racked up 1000+ yards when Edge was out. Of course, they didn't mention they were 6-10 or whatever record they had.

The Colts had the 5th worst defense in the history of the NFL that season. The RB had little to do with it. Rhodes was basically as good as Edge ever was that season. The Colt defense however gave up 486 points. The Patriots gave up only 12 more points than that over the course of TWO seasons in '03 and '04.

 

[Murphys95]

Murphys95 -- Now I get back to my other point. Vanderjagt is the highest percentage kicker in NFL history, inside and outside. Even if the Colts are in more close games, how big of an upgrade be over the best percentage kicker ever?

In terms of caliber, both Vanderjagt and Vinatieri are pretty darn close. I'm not an ESPN Insider subscriber so I haven't been able to read the whole article. But the only upgrade in my opinion, if Clayton said that, is in terms of image. Vanderjagt is an eyesore and an earsore. Vinatieri is a beloved kicker (even outside of New England). I agree that both are equally good kickers. Adam wins the media battle over Vandy every day of the week.

I think Colts fans are relieved to rid themselves of an "idiot kicker" and replace him with a "clutch kicker". Image. That's the only answer I can come up with if Clayton said Adam was an upgrade.

You've got a good argument though. It seems Clayton might not have thought things through.

 

[miDeuce]

With James in the lineup, the Colts posted a 70-26 regular-season record. Without him, they're 7-9.

 

[Yankees/Colts]

With James in the lineup, the Colts posted a 70-26 regular-season record. Without him, they're 7-9.

Seven of those nine losses came in the 486 point season I just referenced. Please read my previous post.

In following years, Peyton played some of his greatest games ever without James - a 6 TD, 300 yard game, the greatest comeback ever vs. the Bucs, a complete blowout vs. the Eagles in Philly....

 

[SeanBruschi54]

Seven of those nine losses came in the 486 point season I just referenced. Please read my previous post.

In following years, Peyton played some of his greatest games ever without James - a 6 TD, 300 yard game, the greatest comeback ever vs. the Bucs, a complete blowout vs. the Eagles in Philly....

Due to the fact that he had no running back he was forced to throw all game if he didnt have career like games then that would tell you something.

***cough Bledsoe cough***

 

[miDeuce]

I still think his loss is a lot more significant than most are trying to make it out to be. I know we all do this with our teams, minimize the importance of those who leave and build up those who are replacing them (just wait till you see what Barry Gardner can do in a Pats uniform). But Edge was a significant part of that offense and he will now be replaced by a rookie who wasn't even the back they wanted or the Colts version of Kevin Faulk.

 

[spacecrime]

Vanderjagt also missed vs. the Pats which would have given the Colts home field advantage.

Vinatieri will kick 50 yarders indoors.

That wasn't a playoff game, which the previous poster was talking about. It was the first gaem of the season, so it is hard to say it cost anyone anything.

Indoors, sure, except AV did miss four kicks indoors in one year, two of them in the SB.

Not that I am a Venderjerk fan, I'm not, but just like those four kicks do not define AV's career, neither does one kick against the steelers define Vanderjerks.

If you have a horrible player, and you cut him and sign a great player, you have upgraded your team at that position.

The problem with the colts acquiring AV is that they replaced the most accurate kicker in the NFL with a less accurate but more clutch kicker.

That maintains the position at a high level of competition at the position, but I don't see that as a major upgrade.

And of course, while we all loved Adam, there is a reason kicker is the lowest paid position on the team. They're just kickers. We loved AV and loathed Vanderderk as much for their personalities as anything else.

Janikowski and Akers are probably similar in talent and impact (like AV and Vaderjerk), but as far as I'm concerned: Yea, Akers, Boo Janikowski.

 

[Yankees/Colts]

Due to the fact that he had no running back he was forced to throw all game

Mungro had 114 yards in the Eagle game mentioned and the RBs combined for 100 in the 6 TD game mentioned.

if he didnt have career like games then that would tell you something.

Kind of like how the Pats .500 record the first half last year and Brady's performances vs. KC, San Diego, Denver and Carolina, when the Pats defense stunk, might tell you something. They fell behind, often quickly, and needed career games from Brady.

But Edge was a significant part of that offense and he will now be replaced by a rookie who wasn't even the back they wanted

They still have Rhodes and Mungro as well who were both excellent when pushed into the spotlight. It will likely be RB by committee.

The Patriots are relying on a rookie RB and a guy who didn't look very good in '05... and that's just one of their many question marks heading into 2006.