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Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Harry Boy, Jul 8, 2014.

  1. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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  2. SalemPats

    SalemPats Rookie

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    It's not the popular stance, but since Hamas has said death to America I say come on them extremely hard and take them out completely. Rebuild afterwards, no pussyfooting around
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  3. Kdo5

    Kdo5 Rookie

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    Well first let's consider that Israel started the bombardment of Gaza before Hamas did. Gaza was bombed when Netanyahu decided Hamas was responsible for the murders of the Israeli teens when no shred of proof was provided.

    Then let's consider the rather lopsided casualties....

    Gaza (Over 40 dead, multiple children, over 100 wounded, plethora of homes and buildings destroyed)

    Israel (0 dead, a few lightly wounded, structural damage).

    Classic "Israeli self defense". And they say a prolonged operation is about to take place with likelihood of a ground invasion. Will the IDF kill over a hundred children again, like in 2008? "Most moral military in the world" indeed...
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  4. SB39

    SB39 On the Roster

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    That's a great statistic! Thanks for posting it!
  5. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    Advantage - Israel
  6. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    [​IMG]
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  7. Hamar

    Hamar Rookie

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    Check out the statistics for Obama's drone war. See how many children have been killed all based in paid rumors...
  8. james87654

    james87654 Rookie

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    #3 Jersey

    you make a good point......even though i voted for obama........even though they have been known to use women/children as human shields
  9. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    When discussing the terrorist group Hamas vs Israel, I don't know how or why anyone would be on Hamas' side. What kind of American would support a terrorist group?
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  10. SalemPats

    SalemPats Rookie

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    Exactly, i don't understand the empathy for people who say 'death to america'.
  11. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    American liberals.

    Liberal Islam Love Affair:
    American Liberals Support Anti Liberals (they're nuts)
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  12. SalemPats

    SalemPats Rookie

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    This is where you are wrong, you can be liberal on social issues, be dimplomatic on foreign issue, but be extremely tough on terrorism and your enemies.
  13. Kdo5

    Kdo5 Rookie

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    Roll your eyes as much as you want. I respect your knowledge of the Middle East very much but I will continue to speak out against the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and bombardment of Gaza.

    Gaza is probably the most densely populated strip of land in the region. The civilians are trapped inside. They can't run to Egypt and they can't run out into Israel. Both sides need to reach a ceasefire. And please Israeli supporters, spare me the folly of the Israelis wanting peace, and the Palestinians wanting violence.

    In response to a post about why any American could condone the actions of Hamas? I say fair enough. But then I ask how can an American who believes in freedom, liberty, and human rights support an occupation, an apartheid, a government (Likud especially) that oppresses in large part due to race. Netanyahu demanded that the PA recognize Israel as a "Jewish state" when Arabs constitute a significant population in this state. A population that is growing far more than the Jewish majority. I don't get how people see no problem with this in the 21st century. Inequality is wrong and there is no exceptions.

    Hamas firing long range missiles toward Tel-Aviv does little good, to be fair. Yet the iron dome missile defense will prevent any significant threat to Israel. If you think Hamas and Gaza are automatically behind the escalation then do so. The Likud government has stalled peace plans through internationally illegal settlements in the West Bank and bombed the Gaza Strip in response to pretty much dinky non-threatening short range rockets by other militant groups.

    As always the bombardment of Gaza will result in a terrible number of innocent lives. It will be wildly disproportionate to any threats to Israel. And then the victims will be blamed for Hamas being in power. Does this mean that Israeli war crimes will be forgiven by mainstream media, under this trump card? Probably, much like 2008.

    The media portrays Israeli life as tenfold more valuable than the life of a Palestinian. This is a fact. Already 70+ are dead, 500+ wounded, many women and children. New report of an Israeli strike which killed 7 people, 5 of them children. But that's just worth an eye roll. The Palestinians have been cooped up in a densely populated strip of land. Civilian death is ensured by this. The hospitals in Gaza are already unable to take in the wounded. And it's just the second day of the operation!

    The Palestinians have and will continue to suffer like the modern day Israelis could never imagine. Not afraid to defend a people dealing with an brutal apartheid for decades, even if popular opinion, informed by mainstream media argue against them.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  14. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign On the Roster

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    I'm not too educated on Israeli/Palestinian history, so pardon my ignorance....why do they live separately? Were the Palestinians already living within the borders of what is now Israel?

    How did the Palestinians get the Gaza strip? Was it negotiated after the Isreal was established?

    Does anyone believe that people in the middle east of different religions will ever live peacefully side by side as neighbors?

    When I think about how well we live together in America, I'm very grateful I was born here.
  15. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We used to be friends with Israel, looks like that's all over, a few years ago saying anything bad about Israel would get you branded Anti Semitic, your life would be ruined, strange world we live in.
  16. Kdo5

    Kdo5 Rookie

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    The Palestinian people are those who lived in that land before 1948. There was no state of Palestine at the time but there were Arab peoples living there. The British had a mandate over the land after the Ottoman Empire fell in WW1 which controlled much of the M.E.

    There is much history behind the creation of Israel including the British mandate, Zionist movement (a homeland for the Jewish people), the Balfour declaration etc.

    In any case Jews from Europe began settling in this land which was previously inhabited by mostly just Arabs. In 1948, the state of Israel was created at the approval of world super powers, a state for the Jewish people (even though there were just as many Arabs living there).

    Multiple wars between Arabs and the Jewish people of Israel and gradually Israel conquered more and more land in Palestine than was partitioned to the Jewish people by the UN. I won't deny that both sides are responsible for the conflict. Arabs were pushed out as refugees or confined to areas still considered Palestinian.

    Over time peace resolutions were passed to give the indigenous Palestinians statehood like the Israelis were given although territories lost in wars were a point of dispute. Well currently the land which is supposed to be part of a Palestinian state is Gaza and the West Bank. The West Bank is occupied by Israel as it's current government allows Jewish settlements to be built after bulldozing Palestinian houses on land that is meant for a Palestinian state (the West Bank). Meanwhile the small, densely populated Gaza Strip was occupied by Israel for quite a while but is now free of occupation but cramped up.

    Palestinians in the West Bank are governed by the West-friendly Palestinian Authority. Gaza is governed by Hamas, a partially political and partially militant group which is generally at war with the Israeli defense forces. Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and also in East Jerusalem have been abused and oppressed while the Gaza Strip is bombed by Israeli jets frequently. Meanwhile there have been acts of Palestinian violence against the Israelis (in the name of resistance) namely rocket attacks from Hamas in Gaza. Some suicide bombings. Still Palestinians have disproportionately suffered the most from occupation.

    More hard line Israelis want Israel to be recognized as a Jewish state and build more settlements in the West Bank. The problem is that there are plenty of Arab Israelis. Proclaiming Israel the Jewish state, especially while still occupying the West Bank has a serious racial undertone. It isn't then a state for all who live there, it is a state for Jewish people alone.

    The Palestinians aren't entirely innocent. History is rarely black or white as people like to think. The Israelis have wrought much suffering upon the Palestinians especially in occupied territories. They are building a wall along the border of the West Bank and Israel so as to restrict the flow of Palestinian civilians. Walls to separate? Doesn't sound right to me.

    The Israeli Defense forces have much innocent blood on their hands. Indiscriminate bombing of Gaza has resulted thousands of dead women and children. Won't even get into Likud's turning the other cheek to settler crimes against Palestinians.

    I suppose I will be responded to as skewing history but that's what I'd say. Obviously history isn't really fully on the side of the Israelis or Palestinians and I encourage anyone to elaborate on the 1948, 1967, Yom Kippur wars but today we know who is really suffering. And the analogy of an apartheid state is increasingly valid.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  17. iapatsfan

    iapatsfan Rookie

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    You willingly acknowledge there are "plenty of Arab Israelis" in Israel. Weird how they're able to comfortably live their lives there. Care to elaborate on the number of mosques in Israel vs. the number of (non-desecrated) synagogues in Gaza?

    Strange how you provide such little history prior to 1948. I'd like to hear some additional history on Gaza. I'd really like to hear more about how a mosaic of King David was found in a synagogue in Gaza that was dated around 508 CE. There is no freaking "apartheid state". The fact that Israel hasn't just turned Gaza into the Israeli Yacht Club is proof of amazing restraint.
  18. Kdo5

    Kdo5 Rookie

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    Gotta love digging back one thousand years to provide an argument for why the land belongs exclusively to the Jewish people. The Arabs were already living there when the waves of Jewish people emigrated. It is not exclusive to the Jewish people because they were there 1500 years earlier.

    And yes it is fortunate that some Arabs are able to have Israeli citizenship even though Arabs are still considered second class citizens. Then there is the millions of refugees, the thousands of women and children dead, and a long abusive occupation. The West Bank continues to be occupied, Jewish only settlements are being built on top of destroyed Palestinian homes, a wall is being built to block the West Bank from Israel, civilians are harassed frequently at military check points amongst other actions such as raiding civilians homes in the middle of the night in 'anti-terror operations'. Much of all of this based on race and religion. Arabs are second class citizens and their lands are occupied. I think it is an apartheid. Many agree.

    Quite the humanitarian you are as well. Israeli yacht club in Gaza? Sad that you think over a million innocent civilians are so worthless. Perhaps it is a racial thing.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  19. SalemPats

    SalemPats Rookie

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    The Palestinians are controlled by a group that says death to America. I don't support that. If the Palestinian people are controlled by religion, if they were more moderate there would be peace.
  20. Kdo5

    Kdo5 Rookie

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    Untrue. Gaza is dominated by Hamas, true whatever you think of them. The much larger West Bank is ruled over by the PA. There are plenty of Palestinian moderates and they have been trying to reach a two state solution for decades. The Palestinians are not "controlled by religion". Sure some Islamists in Gaza are, just as some radical Jewish settlers are. That doesn't represent the vast majorities of either group.
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