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Torrey Smith's facemask on TD

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by ivanvamp, Jan 23, 2012.

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  1. ivanvamp

    ivanvamp Rookie

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    Quick question: I've tried to look it up but I'm not getting a lot of clarity. Smith grabbed McCourty's facemask (on his TD) at the 9 and dragged him the rest of the way. The refs let the play go. But what if they had called the penalty? Personal foul, offensive facemask. I know it's a 15-yard penalty, but where would that have been enforced from?

    It was 3rd and 4 from the Pats' 29. The penalty occurred at the 9-yard line, meaning they picked up 20. If it's enforced from the LOS, it would have been 3rd and 19 from the Pats' 44.

    If it's enforced from the spot of the foul, it would have brought it back to the Pats' 24. Would it have been a first down then? (because the new LOS would have been past where the Ravens needed to get for a first down)

    What is the rule on this? Thanks!
  2. Mark.

    Mark. Rookie

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    I found this:
    It was a pretty blatant penalty-not sure why it wasn't called.

    As far as your other question, no idea. Big help.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2012
  3. tobias funke

    tobias funke Rookie

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    The taunting penalty on Desean Jackson would be the most similar circumstance, i.e. a 15 yard penalty that occurred before the play was over.

    So I would presume it would be enforced from the LOS and the down replayed.

    That being said, I'm reminded of two things:
    - I sure wish they'd called it when Amani Toomer threw Ellis Hobbs out of bounds by his facemask before making a catch in SB42.
    - On the other hand, I'm glad they kept the flags tucked away this postseason, particularly on 3rd and 1 with 15 seconds left while Sterling Moore was draped all over Dennis Pitta.
    - Maybe they should call the regular season the same way. Sure made for better games.
  4. jeffd

    jeffd Rookie

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    It's enforced from the spot of the foul. Since they already picked up the first it would have stood but would have been 1st and 10 from the 24.
  5. zipster9

    zipster9 Rookie

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    Yeah. I dont know what the Refs were doing.. Even the replay they showed after the TD, it was clear, yet the broadcasters didnt even mention it..

    I would think that the penalty would be at the spot of the foul, so it would not have been a TD..
  6. ivanvamp

    ivanvamp Rookie

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    When did that Jackson play happen? I want to know exactly how they enforced that.
  7. ScottishPat

    ScottishPat Rookie

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    Didn't Sanchez get away with the same thing last season on Cunningham ?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  8. tobias funke

    tobias funke Rookie

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    It was the Eagles/Giants game that the Eagles won with Vince Young starting.

    The Eagles were backed up in their own end zone, and Jackson caught a 48-yard pass. As he went out of bounds, he tossed the ball to Perry Fewell (Giants DC) and was flagged for taunting.

    Most people assumed it was a dead ball foul and would be enforced as such, but the officials decided it happened during the play, and called the entire thing back, half the distance to the goal, etc.
  9. ivanvamp

    ivanvamp Rookie

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    Can you show me the rule on this? Because here's what I found here (http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/17_Rule14_Penalty_Enforcement.pdf)

    - - -
    BASIC SPOTS OF ENFORCEMENT
    Article 5␣ The basic spots of enforcement (3-11-1) are: (a) The previous spot for a forward pass (8-6-11); a scrimmage kick (9-5-1); or a free kick (6-3-1) (b) The dead ball spot on a running play (14-1-12). (c) The spot of snap, backward pass, or fumble (8-7).
    (d) The spot of the foul (14-1-4 and 14-1-13).
    (e) The succeeding spot for dead ball fouls. When such a foul by the defense incurs a penalty that results in the offensive team being short of the previous spot, the ball will be advanced to the previous spot.
    Note: If a foul is committed during a run, a fumble, or a backward pass, the penalty is assessed from the basic spot if:
    i) ii) iii)
    Defense fouls in advance of the basic spot Defense fouls behind the basic spot Offense fouls in advance of the basic spot
    If the offense fouls behind the basic spot, enforcement is from the spot of the foul (3 and 1).
    - - -

    It then gives a bunch of examples, the most relevant seems to be this:

    "Second-and-10 on A30. Runner A1 is downed on the A40. An offensive player illegally uses his hands on the A35. Ruling: The offensive foul is behind the basic spot (spot where downed). Penalize from the spot of the foul (A35). A’s ball second-and-15 on A25."

    So let's change the facts to this:

    Third-and-4 on B29. Runner A1 scores a TD. An offensive player illegally uses his hands (facemask) on the B9. Ruling: The offensive foul is behind the basic spot (spot where downed). Penalize from the spot of the foul (B9). A’s ball first-and-10 on B24.

    Does that sound right?
  10. ivanvamp

    ivanvamp Rookie

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    Interesting....would seem to go against what I just posted as the scenario. Maybe a personal foul penalty is done a little different? I mean if they enforced it as you described, then clearly it isn't always the case that a personal foul penalty that occurs downfield is enforced from the spot of the foul.
  11. tobias funke

    tobias funke Rookie

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    I guess I just assume it's the difference between live-ball vs. dead-ball.

    The only downfield offensive penalty called with any regularity is OPI, which is obviously enforced from the LOS, but it's also committed before the pass is caught, so it's not exactly the same situation.

    Probably a question for Mike Pereira or someone equally understanding of the rules.
  12. Danny

    Danny Rookie

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    There were offsetting penalties though. If Jackson had gotten the only penalty, it would have been enforced from the end of the play.

    Scroll down to the Eagles drive starting with 6:45 left in the second quarter:

    1-10-PHI 2 (6:45) 9-V.Young pass deep right to 10-D.Jackson pushed ob at NYG 48 for 50 yards (23-C.Webster). Penalty on NYG-97-L.Joseph, Illegal Use of Hands, offsetting, enforced at PHI 2 - No Play. Penalty on PHI-10-D.Jackson, Taunting, offsetting.

    1-10-PHI 2 (6:23) 25-L.McCoy right guard to PHI 5 for 3 yards (34-D.Grant).


    NFL Game Center: Philadelphia Eagles at New York Giants - 2011 Week 11

    And here's the video: NFL Videos: Jackson taunting
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2012
  13. SpiderFox53

    SpiderFox53 Rookie

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    Not that it means much, but I don't remember ever seeing an offensive personal foul during the play that wasn't enforced from the previous LOS.
  14. tobias funke

    tobias funke Rookie

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    That's right, I completely forgot about that.

    So where would this theoretical penalty be enforced from?

    edit: I still believe it would be the LOS
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2012
  15. Satchboogie3

    Satchboogie3 Rookie

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    I'm assuming it would be as it's a live-ball penalty. That said, I can't remember the time they ever called offensive face mask penatly. They'll call it when a DB barely brushes a receivers facemask when making a tackle but will let a WR drag a DB down the field by the facemask. I don't get it...
  16. BlueThunder

    BlueThunder PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Someone with tweetablity ( Is that even a word?) should tweet one of the mediots and have them put that question to Mike Pereira. Also, biggest question...why wasn't it called....It was obvious on replays and it wasn't like it was a momentary hold and let go.
  17. PatsBoy12

    PatsBoy12 Rookie

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    Interestingly, this is something that rarely gets talked about whenever fans talk about that game. We often read about the missed interception by Asante, the lucky catch by Tyree, and a host of other things. However, I find that this and the fumble that should have been recovered early in that game are rarely mentioned. Also, Meriweather missed an INT in the late stages of the game that would have sealed it as well.

    I was screaming at my TV for an offensive facemask call. I still have no idea how that call was missed. That is one of the early plays that could have changed the outcome a bit. Anyway, it's all over now. Our team's shot at redemption awaits on February 5.
  18. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Even though it is technically a penalty if the ball carrier grabs the facemask, it is rarely if ever called. I don't think it was a bad non-call just because it is never called even when it is blatant.
  19. Satchboogie3

    Satchboogie3 Rookie

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    I just don't get why it's now OK to do what ever you want when you have the ball as a WR/RB but god forbid you try to touch someone when you are playing on the defensive side of the ball... Rules/way games are called make me sick now a days (though I do like that they are letting them play in the playoffs, but still they are missing/blowing too many calls).
  20. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree it's rarely if ever called. But then why is it a "rule"? You'd think that the competition committee would either eliminate it or today "in the interest of player safety" enforce it? It's stuff like this, not the crap they write about that I would like to read from a sports journalist.
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