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"Top-Kill" positive karma thread

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Holy Diver, May 26, 2010.

  1. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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  2. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    In the 50's when this country had some damn confidence in itself, we would have sent the Army Corp of Engineers down there, planted a few large explosives around a perimeter of the leak and caved in the entire well on itself.

    But we sit here, waiting for BP to plug it in a way which will enable them to revisit the site at a later point and resume drilling once the PR does their trick.
  3. DarrylS

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    My hope is that this is the answer... not sure what will happen if it does not.. it is getting scary...
  4. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That was America The Way We Used To Be, we've sunk pretty low since then.
    (watch the sh!t i get from the do-gooders over that one)
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
  5. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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  6. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    You guys are right, I pine for the days of powerful unions, meaningful government regulation, equitable pay, the media fairness doctrine, meaningful anti-trust enforcement, less powerful corporations, and less media consolidation. You know, all the stuff the right has been undoing for decades.
  7. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    1) The Army Corp. of Engineers IS there - and has been all along.

    2) Their presence there would lead me to believe that they've considered all their options and chosen not to pursue any of them because they're not workable.

    I'm not sure how dynamiting the hole would make it cave it - wouldn't it carry the distinct possibility of simply opening it up, instead?

    I think the problem is that no one really has much experience at doing much of anything at this particular depth. Who knows how dynamite would work under that much pressure that far under sea level? I'm sure brighter minds than ours have considered it and there's a valid reason it's not being done.

    I'm as upset as anyone here about the whole disaster. Don't forget, us "bleeding hearts" not only get ticked at the government and at big businesses, we also empathize the pain of the brown pelicans and the dolphins.

    Problem is - no one knows what to do. I don't think the lack of response is so much stupidity or laziness or even that someone is in someone else's pocket - I think it's a genuine case of "duh....now what?"

    What good would it serve for Obama to say, "BP, you've screwed us over long enough - you're outa here?" Maybe they don't know what to do - but no one else knows what to do, either....and the oil companies are the only ones with the proper equipment and training. Personally, I think BP is HOPING Obama tells them to step aside - once he does, they're out of it - and absolved from any further responsibility. From the minute he does that all they have to say is, "Hey, we didn't do that part. You did," and that's it......they've got pausible denial from that point forward.

    I did read an interesting article last night.....apparently they had a large spill in Saudi in the 90's - and they used tankers to siphon the oil. I understand that the situations are not identical - one was a spill on top of the water and this is a spill far beneath the water - but oil does rise and there's no reason it couldn't be vacuumed up as it rises - and before any more of it hits the shore. They even managed to reuse something like 80% of what they siphoned up.

    Read the story - it makes sense, it's worked before, and the developers of the technique have been trying like mad to get a response from BP - without success, apparently.

    Gulf Oil Spill Supertanker Solution - BP Ignoring Secret Saudi Supertankers? - Esquire
  8. DarrylS

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    As I watch the video, no idea of what is happening... needs narration.
  9. 363839

    363839 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Mrs.Patsfan, are you sure the Army Corp of Engineers is there?
    It does not indicate this in your link.
  10. khayos

    khayos Rookie

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    Let's hope it works. Obama let this go on for too long.
  11. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    I do not understand how...

    A) we can send a MANNED submarine down the mariana trench to the deepest a man has ever gone.

    B) We send men and equipment in Space, which operates in a vacuum and pressures never imagined before

    C) We landed on a Moon!

    D) Harnessed the Power of an ATOM!!!


    And we can't plug a whole 5000 feet down?

    This tells me that our greatest scientists are not on the job, That this issue is not of top priority to our nation.

    That is the only rationale. If we didn't after 10 days create a Manhattan style project of the countries brightest minds to say, we have an issue, how do we solve it...


    As a libertarian, I am outraged that this private company is wreaking havoc on so many acres of private owned beach, and destroying an aspect of life which people relied on for their wages.

    I also hate that we are stuck with using oil for energy and have to have 4000 Rigs in the Gulf of Mexico in the first place.
  12. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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  13. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    I'm confused. I thought Libertarians were all about private companies being protected from government interference.

    In a way, seeing as how there has been a distinct lack of oversight, control, watchdogging and whatever of BP and every other damn oil company out there for decades now, one could pretty much say they've been treated very much in the manner that Libertarians promote for both businesses and individuals - with very little government oversight or interference.

    I happen to agree with you - but I've never been a Libertarian and I've never called for smaller government and less interference.

    It amazes me that you do not find your own outrage at least a touch hypocritical.
  14. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    CNN.com Live


    I'm no expert, but this looks a heck of a lot worse than it was...

    I count 5 different leaks now!

    Unless the BP feed from before was just showing us one of the leaks, and knew of these other ones, or this "top kill" made $#!t worse....
  15. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    There is nothing in the Libertarian philosophy that advocates the federal government just sit there and do nothing while an oil spill ravages our southeast coastlines.

    However, that certainly does seem to be the Obama philosophy. Oh wait, I think he's going to give another speech... that'll solve it! :rolleyes:
  16. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    what should he do Wolf?
  17. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

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    But there is an awful lot in there that ensures that the federal government is too weak or crippled to do a damned thing about it. But keep dancing. It's so much fun to watch.
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
  18. blackglass3

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    Dear God let this work.

    And I agree...I don't know if it is supposed to look like this, but it sure as hell looks worse, not better.
  19. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Really? Then why did one of the most currently famous Libertarians around chastise Obama for being "UnAmerican" enough for daring to criticize BP?
  20. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I think both the Boston Globe and James Carville spelled out exactly what he should be doing. As I explained in another thread, I cannot embed video in here and I am not going to transcribe James Carville's comments but you can see them at ABCnews.com.

    Where were all you "what can he do?" people when it came to FEMA '05? :confused: Many of you had join dates from before that summer... I can only imagine the comments from this forum's left leaning members if I did a search.
  21. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    You're going to have to let me know what, specifically, you are talking about here. While you're at it, you should also let me know why it has become my responsibility to defend some statement that some other guy somewhere said. I didn't realize I all of a sudden became the proxy representative of all libertarians and have to defend every comment every one of them throws out there. :confused:
  22. DarrylS

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    let me make this as simple as I can, as obviously in your reading of Red State and the such unables you to discern the actual truths..

    Katrina, was a natural disaster, Brown and his crew were incompetent in getting supplies and the such to NOLA... that could have happened, and is government business... in retrospect much of what happened was based on the shortcoming of Army Corps of Engineers and all of the support agencies.. about 1500 people died in that natural disaster..

    In terms of that disaster, due to its magnitude and impact, there is plenty of blame to go around on all levels of government.. but the agency with the most resources, was very slow to respond.

    BP allowed this man made disaster to happen, due to their incompetence and their ability to skirt many of the rules and regulations.. i.e. they were reckless. The US does not have the resources or assets to stop this disaster, they can insure that everything is being done and insure that the clean up is done correctly. A poster mentioned previously about a submersible going into the Marianna Trench or the tired putting a man on the moon, but the difference is both of those activities were planned..

    What I hear is a whole bunch of partisan rhetoric, but no one has said what can be done differently.. right now there are 1000 US boats and over 20K personnel located there..
  23. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    That's one facet of it. However a bigger pillar to most libertarians is that here we have a private entity that is infringing on hundreds and thousands of other people's property.

    This is what most people don't get about Libertarians... They say, if we follwed Liberty, we would allow big business to destroy the environment, it's simply false, becuase once you can prove the creek on your land is ruined, or something else has been effected than that company has destroyed your personal proprty...

    And to libertarians, there is nothing more important than private property.

    BP is destroying personal homes, businesses, and all other things that rely on the beach for their income, or paid a lot of money to have that beach out their backyard.

    I personally travel every year to Clearwater for the Blues fest, and would hate to go their next year to an oil covered beach.
  24. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    I thank you for the answer, Mcgraw, and I appreciate your taking time to give it to me. I really just don't understand, I guess, and your explanation does help.....but it does lead to more questions, of course.

    On one hand, we have Libertarians saying that private businesses should be allowed to serve or not serve whoever they want - that it's their business, they own it, and they have the right to refuse dealing with anyone they don't want to deal with.

    But now you say that if someone infringes on your individual property, destroyed part or all of it or otherwise caused it harm, doesn't that also lead to this:

    You own a home in a nice little suburb, home values are high and your neighbors are all pretty much alike.....until the house next door to yours is sold to someone "different." Someone you wouldn't do business with if you had a business. You are pretty sure your home values are going to plummet - doesn't that give you the right now to say that you don't want this person living next door to you and wouldn't a Libertarian government support your right to somehow prevent that person from moving next door to you?

    It's far-fetched maybe, but people are stupid and cruel for the most part, and I can honestly see this happening.

    Can you tell me it wouldn't? That the new owner would find protection somewhere?

    Or is it a real possibility?
  25. PatsFanInVa

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    So let's talk about something effective, preventing the next one of these disasters.

    A good libertarian should, by the above logic, also see a compelling interest in preventing drilling in circumstances that make these catastrophes more likely. A good libertarian should, by the above logic, be in favor of the strictest regulation of businesses that could foul the environment in this small local way, or in a global way.

    In short, a good libertarian ends up being in favor of robust state regulation of at the very least the oil and chemical industries.

    Or is "Libertarian" just a code-word for "Ostritch," able to go with the crowd's sentiments after the fact, but unable to preventively act to make these man-made disasters not happen in the first place?

    A national energy policy could, over (say) 50 years, make these disasters as quaint as 19th century cholera outbreaks. Surely a good libertarian sees the wisdom of the government's role in such a policy.

    Once again - can a Libertarian proactively do the right thing, or only reactively?

    PFnV
  26. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    I don't think that situation applies becuase your not directly affecting / damaging physical property. You may think "My house value has dropped, it's affecting my property" but there is nothing I have ever read that associates "perceived value" with real property.

    If that were the case then you could say that a hypothetical war of Israel attacking Iran effecting my stock prices, and therefore I am going to sue the country of Israel.

    Now, if my Neighbor was dumping motor oil in a hole in the ground, and that seeped over into my yard and destroyed trees and my lawn, we have a problem.

    Value is a tricky word, becuase what I value and for how much differs from what you value and for how much, so changes in a perceived value can not be a corner stone in any ideology.
  27. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    I'd hedge on the side that people are innocent before proven guilty, and if you buy a large piece of land, and want to put an oil well on it, you should be able to do that. If you screw up you should expect to pay lots and lots of money.

    That aspect will raise the risk factor for others looking to do the same, so it would not become economically feasible to drill for oil of you have to pay out billions if you screw up the environment.

    As far as drilling in the Ocean, I have yet to understand how to think about that. On one hand, no one person owns the ocean, so who gives them permission to do that, what property taxes do they pay to do it?

    Overall I see it as a very very bad idea to allow people to drill and extract things from property they don't own, and as we see the risk and impact is too large to even think about.

    I highly expect the lawsuit and money extracted out of BP should put BP close to out of business. This in turn would factor into the risk of other companies looking to drill in the Gulf or any other body of water.

    From an ideology standpoint, I can see the point of view where certain practices always end with destruction of private property and therefore would require permission from those around it, and/or not be allowed, due to the safety and chances of failure, and destruction of property.

    Libertarians are not anarchists, we need government. Government is there to enforce property laws, protect the rights and laws of the land as set forth by the constitution, Defend the country from foreign invaders, etc... They aren't there to take from me and re-distrubute it to others. They aren't there to prop up private enterprises. They aren't there to ensure live is fair for everyone.
  28. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    Good job HD, your karma seems to be working.

    Now if you'd just turn your attention the Celtics/Magic series please.
  29. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    the officials obviously WANTED a game 6, the fix was in.
  30. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    BP temporarily suspends 'top kill' effort - CNN.com

    apparently they have stopped the "top-Kill" for the day to reasess the mud, and the oil is still frickin gushing....

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