Top 4 Players that would help the Pats Defense

[sostek1918]

The playing time of Guyton and Green-Ellis, along with the lack of pass rush that Vrabel and Thomas are getting every week only confirms my beliefs that we REALLY need a young DE/OLB.

Crable will probably get some playing time next year. But he's no LaMarr Woodley.

ILB - not as important as OLB. Plus we have Guyton there and Bruschi has 1 year left on his contract that he will probably finish up with us.

RB - Great depth. Green Ellis adds even more youth and depth to our running game.

DB - Our youngest position. Hobbs, Wheatley, Meriweather, James Sanders, Wilhite. It's unlikely that we will use a high pick on another DB.



Therefore our only needs are OLB and possibly OLine.

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i disagree with ur D-back statement. i think its possible that they could draft a potential star corner, which they have not had since Ty LAw. I do not consider Samuel a star corner because of his dropped INT in the super bowl

 

[Ochmed Jones]

The playing time of Guyton and Green-Ellis, along with the lack of pass rush that Vrabel and Thomas are getting every week only confirms my beliefs that we REALLY need a young DE/OLB.

Crable will probably get some playing time next year. But he's no LaMarr Woodley.

ILB - not as important as OLB. Plus we have Guyton there and Bruschi has 1 year left on his contract that he will probably finish up with us.

RB - Great depth. Green Ellis adds even more youth and depth to our running game.

DB - Our youngest position. Hobbs, Wheatley, Meriweather, James Sanders, Wilhite. It's unlikely that we will use a high pick on another DB.



Therefore our only needs are OLB and possibly OLine.

ILB's, RB's and DB's are easier to find than star 3-4 LB pass rushers.

I still think our #1 need for next season is a pas rushing demon. Someone that can line up and put the fear of time compression in the head of opposing QB's.

 

[patsfan55]

The playing time of Guyton and Green-Ellis, along with the lack of pass rush that Vrabel and Thomas are getting every week only confirms my beliefs that we REALLY need a young DE/OLB.

Crable will probably get some playing time next year. But he's no LaMarr Woodley.

ILB - not as important as OLB. Plus we have Guyton there and Bruschi has 1 year left on his contract that he will probably finish up with us.

RB - Great depth. Green Ellis adds even more youth and depth to our running game.

DB - Our youngest position. Hobbs, Wheatley, Meriweather, James Sanders, Wilhite. It's unlikely that we will use a high pick on another DB.



Therefore our only needs are OLB and possibly OLine.

I wanted Woodley almost as much as I wanted Greg Jennings the year before! Of course then we wouldn't have had Meriweather or Mayo, and I love Meriweather, and am really starting to like Mayo. But, just think if we had Woodley we could have had Michigan Dave make us all t-shirts! Ever since we let my boy Willie go we've needed a pass rushing olb that can beat a guy one-on-one, a true power rusher.

 

[D-Money]

Can this team afford a CB during FA?There will be some decent CBs on the market.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Can this team afford a CB during FA?There will be some decent CBs on the market.

Asomugha comes to mind. I think the Pats need to extend Wilfork though so that will affect our cap situation. Of course if the NFL is going to be uncapped... they can go a bit wild in free agency.

 

[KillEM]

After not re-signing Rodney Harisson, we should have a bit more money in Free Agency to throw a CBs way.

If the coaches are happy with Crable and/or find a DE/OLB stud in the draft, then we should cut Vrabel, as that would save a lot of money too.

 

[dryheat44]

After not re-signing Rodney Harisson, we should have a bit more money in Free Agency to throw a CBs way.

If the coaches are happy with Crable and/or find a DE/OLB stud in the draft, then we should cut Vrabel, as that would save a lot of money too.

I'm starting to thing you're crazy. Very knowledgeable...but crazy nonetheless. Who are we going to get that's better than Vrabel who costs less? You obviously think Vrabel has slipped this year, and I would agree, although not by nearly as much as you think. However, cutting him would free up just over 3 million. Which stud veteran is going to come in for a net cap savings? Which rookie in the draft is going to take his place and learn the most complex defense in the NFL and perform better than Vrabel? Vrabel is not the problem on this defense. He's not even a problem.

 

[JoeShmoe]

The Pats have a pass rushing OLB in a current project - Crable and they also have Guyton whos rapidly becoming a very good partner to Mayo at ILB with his coverage speed. Vrabel could move inside next year on run downs

Watson is being held into block much more this year so its hard to know

Front seven isnt our problem. IMHO we need a CB, a Safety and a T. If we can get someone in free agency (Roy Williams?) then we do that but with 2 2nd rounders and maybe a comp. 3rd for Samuel we have options to trade up

Personally I'd like to see a stud CB - over 6 foot tall!

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

My Sept. 21 analysis:

2008 contracts
RB Evans, Jorden
OL Hochstein, Connelly, Britt, Levoir
S J. Sanders, Harrison, Williams
CB L. Sanders, O'Neal
QB Cassel, Gutierrez
WR Gaffney, Ventrone
P Hanson
LS Paxton
DL K. Smith, S. Thomas, Wright
LB Alexander, Izzo, Woods
bold are my best guess at ERFA/RFA

2009 contracts
OL Mankins, Kaczur, Neal, Yates, O'Callaghan
TE Watson, D. Thomas
DL Seymour, Wilfork, Green, L. Smith
LB Bruschi, Vrabel, Guyton
CB Hobbs
RB Faulk
WR Aiken
K Gostkowski
ERFA/RFA rules change for 2010's uncapped year, so I'm not guessing at this point.

Looking at these two lists, my first crack at a 2008 shopping list:

Rounds 1-3: OG/OT, TE, DL

I'm looking for a replacement for Neal, this can be someone who moves Kaczur inside or a direct replacement at RG.
Loss of blocking at the TE position is affecting the run game, I know many here consider the first round TEs a waste, but Graham's departure and the slow down when Watson is injured is argument enough to consider TE early.
Sey and Wilfork and Green and Wright coming up in the next two years makes this a value pick.

Rounds 4-7: OLB, ILB, S, CB, FB, QB, P

OLB depth is an ongoing need.
Guyton was a lucky signing at UDFA, but more depth at ILB is needed.
BB kept Spann and Dillard and Ventrone, so he's keeping some depth tucked away to develop. Harrison may re-sign if he doesn't wear down too much this season. Shopping for another S in the draft makes some sense, even if J. Sanders extends.
Wheatley and Wilhite and Richardson create a nice pool of youth, but another young player to develop at CB won't go amiss with Hobbs contract up after 2009.
Evans will probably re-sign, but until he does, a stronger blocker than Eckel should be considered.
Cassel is most likely gone after this year. Gutierrez may bounce back, but even if he does, competition is needed.
Hanson is struggling with directional kicking, and even though he's showing a strong leg so far, he's likely to be replaced or at least challenged.

The uncapped 2010 season is going to make drafting strategy very challenging for the next couple seasons. There are 7 essential players coming due at the end of 2009 - Seymour, Wilfork, Mankins, Watson, Kaczur, Jarvis, and Neal. One can hope they will all want to stay, but the first three are going to be targeted early by poachers. Their agents will probably encourage them to wait until after 2009 before negotiating new contracts.

One month later I'm getting a kick out of some of the alarmist posts predicting the end of the dynasty, great fun guys.

The OL picture has changed a bit with the play of LeVoir at RT as an injury replacement. I don't expect him to beat out Kaczur to start, but he has beaten Britt whom I expected to beat O'Callaghan. I don't know how LeVoir would do at LT, but he's looking like a solid RT. My OL concern was Neal's RG slot. When healthy Neal is close to Pro-Bowl level, the problems come when he's injured. Hochstein has declined at Guard, though I think he's still an excellent reserve Center. Yates has really disappointed me this season and I'd love to see the Pats find someone to replace him.

Projecting into 2009: Light, Mankins, Koppen, and Kaczur look to be locks. Neal, if healthy, should also be a lock. I think LeVoir has played himself into a job. I believe Britt is a UFA after this season and I expect he'll be gone. O'Callaghan, when healthy, is a servicable reserve RT, I don't know if he's mobile/quick enough to move inside to Guard, but I'd like to see him working in there to see if he can backstop both RG/RT. Off the Practice Squad: Connelly is in line to beat out Hochstein as the next utility OL, Bender should benefit from a year of Scarnecchia's Big Men Dancing Academy, and Wendell should be stronger from a year of Woicik, Nash, and Davis. All three could be in the mix for the interior reserve slots and Scar may find an upgrade for Yates.

Where I had OL as a target for the first three rounds, I'd now downgrade that "need." The pool of talent available to replace Neal, should he be injured again, is now looking deeper. I would like to find a mid-round LT candidate who can also play multiple positions, only because I'd rate Kaczur as the best choice to move into Neal's slot since he is more mobile at the second level than LeVoir or O'Callaghan - the former is an unknown at LT and the latter an emergency LT only.

Day One priorities are now just TE and DL.

Day Two now looks like: OLB, LT, ILB, S, CB, FB, QB, P.

FB: I expect Evans to be re-signed, he's been solid as a lead blocker this season and is a core STs player and a team leader. I anticipate this "need" will come off the shopping list, but until he is re-signed...

CB: Richardson and Wilhite are both looking good as developing CBs and Wheatley looks to have gotten himself back on track after whatever setback had him inactive against Denver.

ILB: Mayo is developing into the 3-down ILB I expected to see. Guyton has played himself into a solid three man rotation at ILB. Finding another ILB isn't as critical with Adalius' versatility, whether Ruud can come back from IR and be a factor is anyone's guess, but BB should have an idea by April.

OLB: In recent weeks the OLB picture is shifting a little too. Adalius is spending less time in coverage with the development of Guyton and Mayo, which is reflected by improved pressure on the QB. The Vrabel is washed up crowd is hilarious, though I like that Woods has been able to spell him a little to keep him fresher for the end of the season. Crable and Redd will both be interesting to see again next preseason.

S: Re-signing Sanders is the primary fix at Safety. Meriweather played well as Rodney's replacement. I have faith in my man Spann as solid depth at Safety. Dillard keeps coming back to the Practice Squad so they see something to like with him. Lewis Sanders has been solid as a reserve CB who can take some Safety reps as needed, and it wouldn't surprise me to see O'Neal get some reps at FS as the kids develop at CB. Finally Bubba the WR/DB/ST's Ace is there for crunch time. It's not so bad after all.

Watching this season progress, and looking over the anticipated holes, it's shaping up to be a freewheeling draft where BB won't have any great "needs" to address and he can go after whichever prospects intrigue him most.

 

[cstjohn17]

Day One priorities are now just TE and DL.

Day Two now looks like: OLB, LT, ILB, S, CB, FB, QB, P.

Great breakdown, I just don't agree with the assessment. Round 1 is BPA, all the units on the team could use a top flight player (sans QB, Kicker).

For needs I like to look at two seasons out, critical factors are effectiveness, age* and free agent status (highest need is listed first):

1. S - No depth, started needed plus adequate backup
2. O Line - Neal (32) FA after 09, Kaczur (30) free agent after 2009, Mankins free agent after 2009, Light (31)
3. D Line - Wilfork, Seymour & Green are FAs after 2009
4. TE - Watson free agent after 2009, Thomas free agent after 2009
5. OLB - Like all units an impact player wouldn't hurt but good overall depth, Vrabel (34) free agent after 2009, Woods' skillset is highly replaceable, he is a RFA after 08 I think...
6. ILB - Bruschi is done, like what I see from Mayo and Guyton, a third peg would complete the picture (veteran FA Crowder or Barton plus a younger player - draft pick or Ruud)
7. CB - Some good youts but highly unproven, a top rate player could help help the picture, Hobbs is free agent after 2009
8. RB - Jordan is a free agent after 08, Morris free agent after 2009
9. WR - Gaffney is only upcoming free agent, easy to replace
10. QB - Brady injury? O'Connell, and then someone

*Age at start of 2009 season

 

[BradyManny]

Day One priorities are now just TE and DL.

Day Two now looks like: OLB, LT, ILB, S, CB, FB, QB, P.

I'm currently in the process of doing a similar position by position breakdown. I'll probably post my amateurish thoughts on this forum at some point. But as I go, I realize more and more what you said months ago - the needs on this team are not at all dramatic, any mediots or chicken littles suggesting the window of opportunity of this dynasty are a joke, and we're set up pretty well long term.

I'm through the OL, LB and DL in my breakdown. And I came to the same conclusion as you: DL might be the area of biggest need going into the draft. As long the team can't resign Wright and or extend Wilfork. If they do those things, then it's no longer a big need, short term or even long term. I may be naive, but I don't see Seymour going elsewhere.

I have many positions to take a closer look at, but so far, I'm seeing that in an ideal world, if they re-sign many of their own players and extend a few (Wilfork particularly), it looks like the draft is shaping up into one where the Pats can basically just go for best player available at every position in the draft. A frighteningly liberating and exciting thought.

 

[Jimke]

I'm currently in the process of doing a similar position by position breakdown. I'll probably post my amateurish thoughts on this forum at some point. But as I go, I realize more and more what you said months ago - the needs on this team are not at all dramatic, any mediots or chicken littles suggesting the window of opportunity of this dynasty are a joke, and we're set up pretty well long term.

I'm through the OL, LB and DL in my breakdown. And I came to the same conclusion as you: DL might be the area of biggest need going into the draft. As long the team can't resign Wright and or extend Wilfork. If they do those things, then it's no longer a big need, short term or even long term. I may be naive, but I don't see Seymour going elsewhere.

I have many positions to take a closer look at, but so far, I'm seeing that in an ideal world, if they re-sign many of their own players and extend a few (Wilfork particularly), it looks like the draft is shaping up into one where the Pats can basically just go for best player available at every position in the draft. A frighteningly liberating and exciting thought.

The most important asset on the Patriots is Tom Brady. Everything
possible should be done in the off season to protect him. This means
acquiring an offensive lineman and a good blocking tight end. I can't
see the Patriots investing in an expensive player like Fanaca which
means they will have to invest a high draft pick (probably #1) in an
offensive lineman who can start on day one.

The weakest area on the defense is cornerback. Every week we see
the defense give up several long pass plays. I'm not convinced that
either Wheatley or Wilhite are the answer. This has to be another
first day need.

With regard to the defensive line, the Pats are still set up thru the
2009 season. Their first priority has to be to re-sign Vince Wilfork.
I suspect that Seymour will demand to be paid as much as a
quarterback like Dwight Freeney. I do agree that a #1 draft choice
will be needed to replace either Seymour or Wilfork.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

With regard to the defensive line, the Pats are still set up thru the
2009 season. Their first priority has to be to re-sign Vince Wilfork.
I suspect that Seymour will demand to be paid as much as a
quarterback like Dwight Freeney. I do agree that a #1 draft choice
will be needed to replace either Seymour or Wilfork.

Finding talented D Line players that could even carry our D Line's jock strap is going to be extremely difficult, and nearly impossible outside the top 10 picks. However if BB can get his hands on Mount Cody of Alabama, I would be estatic, NT Cody could be an instant upgrade, and that says a lot since Wilfork is a pro bowler.
After two years with Woicik, Cody would be a monster.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Great breakdown, I just don't agree with the assessment. Round 1 is BPA, all the units on the team could use a top flight player (sans QB, Kicker).

For needs I like to look at two seasons out, critical factors are effectiveness, age* and free agent status (highest need is listed first):

1. S - No depth, started needed plus adequate backup
2. O Line - Neal (32) FA after 09, Kaczur (30) free agent after 2009, Mankins free agent after 2009, Light (31)
3. D Line - Wilfork, Seymour & Green are FAs after 2009
4. TE - Watson free agent after 2009, Thomas free agent after 2009
5. OLB - Like all units an impact player wouldn't hurt but good overall depth, Vrabel (34) free agent after 2009, Woods' skillset is highly replaceable, he is a RFA after 08 I think...
6. ILB - Bruschi is done, like what I see from Mayo and Guyton, a third peg would complete the picture (veteran FA Crowder or Barton plus a younger player - draft pick or Ruud)
7. CB - Some good youts but highly unproven, a top rate player could help help the picture, Hobbs is free agent after 2009
8. RB - Jordan is a free agent after 08, Morris free agent after 2009
9. WR - Gaffney is only upcoming free agent, easy to replace
10. QB - Brady injury? O'Connell, and then someone

*Age at start of 2009 season

Well done youownself.

- Barring a new CBA, UFAs headed into 2010 may find themselves RFAs (using your examples: Kaczur, Mankins, Wilfork, and Thomas are RFAs in 2010). Too soon to worry.
- Sey, Vince, and Jarvis are precisely why I'm looking at DL as my first choice in the 2009 draft, even if BB can't get a top 15 monster, he can get himself a solid player who will match Jarvis' talent or better.
- We agree that a TE who can block and be a decent threat in the passing game is a "need," 2009 is supposed to be a good TE draft class and I want one early.
- S depth is an issue, but I'm not overly concerned about it with the potential to sign a vet CB who is willing to accept FS to prolong his career. Meriweather is coming along just fine. Even if Sanders is not re-signed, I think BB has a pool of players who can help back there - not to mention that some of those bigger, slower CBs in the draft could be picked up in the later rounds.
- I'm pleased with the progress of Richardson and Wilhite, and I expect Wheatley to be back in the mix soon - if he isn't already. CB just isn't that critical a need.
- OLB: Granted Vrabes is aging, Adalius is over 30. Woods hasn't broken out and wowed anyone, but he's still a solid #3 entering his RFA year. BB spent a 3rd round pick on Crable who is hopefully learning and working hard on bulking up and getting stronger. Redd survived waivers to make the Practice Squad - he just earned his 3rd black jersey in 7 weeks, very encouraging. If BB doesn't draft someone who has already been playing some hybrid LB/DE, like USC's Cushing or Matthews, then you still have a transition period of 1-3 years. The draft just does not look to have any "quick" fix for OLB depth - even if BB took a George Selvie at the back of round one.
- RB: Jordan seems like he's enjoying his time here so far, let's see if he wants to come back before worrying about a power back who turns 30 in 12 days. Maroney may be in some people's doghouse, but he's still a productive back. Morris is over 30, worrying about him long term is unproductive.

 

[cstjohn17]

Well done youownself.

- Barring a new CBA, UFAs headed into 2010 may find themselves RFAs (using your examples: Kaczur, Mankins, Wilfork, and Thomas are RFAs in 2010). Too soon to worry.

The CBA confuses the hell out of me, especially with an uncapped year. If anyone has a concise summary of the impact of an uncapped season I would love to read it.

As I think about the drafts needs I tend to focus on the defense, I am not sure why. As I examine the really good 3-4 defenses they all had a couple of common themes. Very string presence on the interior of the D line (Hampton, Ted Washington, Jamal Williams, etc.), they also had solid LBs and a difference maker at Safety ( Polamalu, Harrison, although not a 3-4 Sanders makes an unreal difference for Indy).

Based on this I hope the extend Wilfork and then grab a stud S either via free agency or the draft.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

The CBA confuses the hell out of me, especially with an uncapped year. If anyone has a concise summary of the impact of an uncapped season I would love to read it.

As I think about the drafts needs I tend to focus on the defense, I am not sure why. As I examine the really good 3-4 defenses they all had a couple of common themes. Very string presence on the interior of the D line (Hampton, Ted Washington, Jamal Williams, etc.), they also had solid LBs and a difference maker at Safety ( Polamalu, Harrison, although not a 3-4 Sanders makes an unreal difference for Indy).

Based on this I hope the extend Wilfork and then grab a stud S either via free agency or the draft.

I'm hopeful Vince will be extended, on the negative side for him - and a possible insentive to extend - he will be a RFA if 2010 is uncapped. As for Safety, I think Meriweather is coming along nicely to be the difference maker you crave.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I'm hopeful Vince will be extended, on the negative side for him - and a possible insentive to extend - he will be a RFA if 2010 is uncapped. As for Safety, I think Meriweather is coming along nicely to be the difference maker you crave.

I have to agree, Merriweather is starting to produce. He's got a long way to go in order to become a legitimate play maker in the secondary, but I like what I have seen thus far. Manning will be a huge test for him.
Although if I were the Dolts, I would run a lot of over routes with clearing routes underneath designed to stress Sanders desicion making skills. I think San Diego exposed him a bit and teams are going to come after him until he proves he can make plays on those type routes.

 

[cstjohn17]

I have to agree, Merriweather is starting to produce. He's got a long way to go in order to become a legitimate play maker in the secondary, but I like what I have seen thus far. Manning will be a huge test for him.
Although if I were the Dolts, I would run a lot of over routes with clearing routes underneath designed to stress Sanders desicion making skills. I think San Diego exposed him a bit and teams are going to come after him until he proves he can make plays on those type routes.

The Colts passing game has some clear advantages, I am not sure who or how the Pats will cover Clark and on the outside Wayne will get Safety help on every play. That could leave Gonzales and/or Harrison in a lot of 1:1 matchups against Wheatley / O'Neal / Richardson.

Still in my heart I feel another Earthland Moreland afternoon... some way some how the team gets it done.

 

[cstjohn17]

I'm hopeful Vince will be extended, on the negative side for him - and a possible insentive to extend - he will be a RFA if 2010 is uncapped. As for Safety, I think Meriweather is coming along nicely to be the difference maker you crave.

Why will Wilfork be a RFA if 2010 is uncapped? He will be a 6 year veteran at that point and should be eligible for full free agency.

 

[captain stone]

Vrabel is not the problem on this defense. He's not even a problem.

I respectfully disagree. The pass rush so far has been unacceptable.The pass rush on this defense starts at OLB: AT has picked up his pressure/knockdown/sack #s; Vrabel has not. It's well and good that his edge-setting skills are still present; his pass-rushing skills are gone, however. And I appear to be not the only one to think similarly:New England - Pro Football Weekly

Vrabel is indeed not the main problem on this defense, but he is a problem. Perhaps next season he can rotate at ILB; but under no circumstances next season can he remain a starter at OLB.