Top 10 DT's in the draft

[Brady6]

I agree with this. Very intriguing player.

I just don't like his motor. He seems lazy to me.

 

[I.M. Fletcher]

The thing about the Seattle model is that it still requires a Vince type tackle to make it work. They really were at their best as a defensive front when they had Red Bryant eating up tons of space, and Kevin williams did the trick this year. I would also hesitate to put Vince in the "big fatty" box, as he has always been the most, or among the top 3 athletic NT in the game. He is carrying a lot more weight the last few years, but that was by design given the amount of other holes he had to cover.

I think with a player like Easley, most of us thought he would be placed in a more straight rushing role, but BB demands versatility from everyone, so I would expect whoever we bring in to have plenty of versatility to their game.

 

[mayoclinic]

The thing about the Seattle model is that it still requires a Vince type tackle to make it work. They really were at their best as a defensive front when they had Red Bryant eating up tons of space, and Kevin williams did the trick this year. I would also hesitate to put Vince in the "big fatty" box, as he has always been the most, or among the top 3 athletic NT in the game. He is carrying a lot more weight the last few years, but that was by design given the amount of other holes he had to cover.

Red Bryant played mostly DE for the Seahawks. Kevin Williams is nothing at all like Wilfork in terms of his build or his game. I wouldn't call him a "Vince type tackle" at all. You certainly need DTs who can stop the run, but not necessarily by being space eaters and gap controllers.

 

[kennyb]

Bennett from o su is an Easley clone. And he'll be a second round pick. Wish they could have picked bitonio instead of reached like that. Yes I know seattle whatever still a reach.

 

[RayClay]

I'm kind of hoping we're looking at Seattle's model on how to build a defense. Athletes everywhere. I don't really want a Vince Jr type fatty at DT. I'd rather have a good DE like Odighizuwa whom might be able to slide into DT in pass-rushing situations. A la Justin Tuck. Get the bigger run-stuffer with the non-premium pick.

I don't really dislike this, I disagree, but disagree has the nasty red X and i didn't want that. Also, if you think wilfork is nothing but a fatty, i didn't know what team you've been watching the last decade.

Any mods, could you switch the nasty X to dislike?

 

[mayoclinic]

Bennett from o su is an Easley clone. And he'll be a second round pick. Wish they could have picked bitonio instead of reached like that. Yes I know seattle whatever still a reach.

I don't think Bennett is half the prospect that Easley was, injury aside.

 

[RayClay]

Red Bryant played mostly DE for the Seahawks. Kevin Williams is nothing at all like Wilfork in terms of his build or his game. I wouldn't call him a "Vince type tackle" at all. You certainly need DTs who can stop the run, but not necessarily by being space eaters and gap controllers.

Different teams play different defenses. I'msure the pats would like a talented DT that would allow them to play the same type od defense, at least on certain plays.

 

[RayClay]

I'm kind of hoping we're looking at Seattle's model on how to build a defense. Athletes everywhere. I don't really want a Vince Jr type fatty at DT. I'd rather have a good DE like Odighizuwa whom might be able to slide into DT in pass-rushing situations. A la Justin Tuck. Get the bigger run-stuffer with the non-premium pick.

You want a 266 lb guy as our run stuffer?

 

[RayClay]

Armstead would be a nice story, but seems very questionable for a 1st. Could be interesting prospects in later rounds. 3s and 4s will still get you very good OGs in most drafts.

 

[mayoclinic]

Armstead would be a nice story, but seems very questionable for a 1st. Could be interesting prospects in later rounds. 3s and 4s will still get you very good OGs in most drafts.

I agree with this. I can see the value of taking a TJ Clemmings, Cam Erving or AJ Cann in the first 2 rounds, but I can also see the value of taking OG's in the 97-100 range with our likely comp pick and early 4th from TB, and going DL earlier. Add 2 of the following in our top 3 picks and I think you'd have a dynamic DL: Eddie Goldman, Malcolm Brown, Jordan Phillips, Mario Edwards, Marcus Hardison, Ellis McCarthy, Carl Davis, Arik Amstead, Xavier Cooper.

 

[mayoclinic]

Marcus Hardison and Eddie Goldman both make Reiss' short list of DT's of interest heading into the Combine:

Position of need: Defensive tackle. Captain Vince Wilfork remains a rock in the middle and while he's still effective, he's also closer to the end of his career than the beginning. Sealver Siliga has been his understudy while veteran Alan Branch is a free agent, so perhaps the Patriots will take a closer look at some of the bigger-bodied defensive tackles in the draft.

Three players the Patriots could target in the draft:

Carl Davis (DT), Iowa: Listed at 6-foot-4 and 321 pounds, Davis was pinpointed by ESPN draft analyst Todd McShay as a possible fit for the team late in the first round. He performed well at the Senior Bowl and played under former Bill Belichick assistant Kirk Ferentz at Iowa, although media analysts are asking why his motor ran hot and cold during his college career. From a pure physical makeup standpoint, he appears to have some desirable traits.

Eddie Goldman (DT), Florida State: The 6-foot-4, 314-pound Goldman is one of the draft's more powerful players at the position, per analysts, as he has reportedly shown the ability to two-gap and hold his ground. That could be appealing to the Patriots based on how two-gapping remains part of their system. He's obviously played in a lot of big games at the highest level of competition in college, which also might have value to New England.

Marcus Hardison (DT), Arizona State: The 6-foot-3, 311-pound Hardison has played across the line of scrimmage and we know the Patriots generally like versatility. His production is notable in multiple spots although he's not currently mentioned in the top tier of tackles by media analysts. He apparently opened the eyes of some at the Senior Bowl.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england.../countdown-to-combine-new-england-patriots-dt

Davis scares me a bit, though the upside is certainly appealing.

 

[patfanken]

Bennett from o su is an Easley clone. And he'll be a second round pick. Wish they could have picked bitonio instead of reached like that. Yes I know seattle whatever still a reach.

Even with the ability of having 20-20 hindsight, Easley still is the better pick for this reason, Kenny. The impact DLman, next to QB is the most difficult resource to find, and when you get a chance to pick one, especially where we get to pick, you HAVE to take that risk. Bitonio might turn out to be an all pro LG for the next decade, but that's a risk too. Yet even if he did, if Easley turned into an "impact" DLman the risk is worth it.

It's important for me to note, that I am talking about IMPACT players, not merely decent or good ones. Impact guys are the ones OC's have do special things to solve. Impact guys are the ones DC's prepare game plans around. THOSE guys are truly rare and there are usually only 5-10 in the league at any one time, and the number drops considerable if you are only talking about interior DLmen.

Now Easley MIGHT not turn out to be that guy we hoped for. But even if he doesn't, you can't NOT take the shot when you have it.

 

[patfanken]

As we move toward the combine, and it looks more and more like DT is going to be even more of a priority, has any of the most talked about DT prospects seem worthy of that 32nd pick, or are we going to fall into the crack of having a group of DT's worth a first round pick, but who aren't going to be there at #32, and what's left that's not worth the pick. That's my worry,

RIght now Armstead is fast becoming my binky. I know there are questions about his explosiveness and pass rush skills, but its having those questions that will make it possible that he could fall within our range (22-32).

 

[mayoclinic]

As we move toward the combine, and it looks more and more like DT is going to be even more of a priority, has any of the most talked about DT prospects seem worthy of that 32nd pick, or are we going to fall into the crack of having a group of DT's worth a first round pick, but who aren't going to be there at #32, and what's left that's not worth the pick. That's my worry

There is no need to reach at 32, for any position. You have to trust your draft board. If no player is left that is worth the pick, you pick a different position, or trade down. As John Schneider noted, "We never go into this thing saying we have to have this or we have to have that. That's when you get in trouble in terms of overpaying."

 

[patfanken]

There is no need to reach at 32, for any position. You have to trust your draft board. If no player is left that is worth the pick, you pick a different position, or trade down. As John Schneider noted, "We never go into this thing saying we have to have this or we have to have that. That's when you get in trouble in terms of overpaying."

Of course what you say is true as a basic philosophy. But you might have missed my edit, which was an attempt to get me back to the OP.

We are constantly put into a tough position drafting so late. ANY prospect we might get there will have questions. If they didn't, we wouldn't have a shot at them. Where we draft, the only way we get blue chip athletes is if they have injury or character red flags.

The fact is that next to QB, no position in the draft is likely to get over drafted than DL (BTW, you know me. WR's are over drafted by definition and don't count ) So teams are more likely to over look some flaws in the hope of hitting the DL lottery. So right now, what do you think ANY of the top DT options could reach that 22-32 area, and which ones do you think would be worth making the move up for.

 

[mayoclinic]

Of course what you say is true as a basic philosophy. But you might have missed my edit, which was an attempt to get me back to the OP.

We are constantly put into a tough position drafting so late. ANY prospect we might get there will have questions. If they didn't, we wouldn't have a shot at them. Where we draft, the only way we get blue chip athletes is if they have injury or character red flags.

The fact is that next to QB, no position in the draft is likely to get over drafted than DL (BTW, you know me. WR's are over drafted by definition and don't count ) So teams are more likely to over look some flaws in the hope of hitting the DL lottery. So right now, what do you think ANY of the top DT options could reach that 22-32 area, and which ones do you think would be worth making the move up for.

My rankings and my draft board is still in flux, so I don't know the answer to your question. Right now, looking at the top 13 or so DTs (including DT/DE hybrids):

1. Leonard Williams, USC. Will be out of reach. I think he's a tad over-rated - 1st round prospect, but not a top 5 talent in my opinion. Certainly worth taking at 32, but not a factor.

2. Danny Shelton, Washington. Will probably be out of reach, and I think he's over-rated. Depends on the Pats' board. He might be worth taking at 32, though I don't rate him that highly, and he won't likely be available. If BB is convinced that he's VW II, then he's worth trading up for.

3. Eddie Goldman, Florida St. I have him rated very high, and think he's worth trading up for slightly, depending on who else is available.

4. Malcolm Brown, Texas. I have him rated as a 1st/2nd round borderline prospect. Maybe worth taking at 32, depending on who is available. Probably not worth trading up for.

5. Jordan Phillips, Oklahoma. Boom or bust prospect. Need to see how he does at the Combine to evaluate his draft stock. Could be a top 15 pick, or a 2nd rounder. Too much risk for me to trade up. Haven't decided yet whether I would take him at 32. Would definite consider him strongly in the 2nd round.

6. Carl Davis, Iowa. A riser after the Senior Bowl, 1st/2nd round prospect right now. I think he's inconsistent and over-rated and he scares me, so I certainly wouldn't trade up for him, and probably wouldn't take him at 32. Would consider him in the 2nd round depending on how else is available.

7. Arik Armstead, Oregon. DE/DT tweener who is raw, but with great length and upside. Slow off the snap. Some tout him as possible top-10 or -15 pick. I don't see him. I would personally consider him in the 2nd round, based on who else is available.

8. Michael Bennett, Ohio St. Small, quick 3-tech. Not much positional versatility. A less version of Easley without the versatility, IMO. 2nd round pick who could go late 1st if he shows well at the Combine and Pro Day. I wouldn't take him for the Pats.

9. Marcus Hardison, Arizona St. After Goldman, my favorite DT in this draft. Great versatility, can play from the 9 tech to the 1 tech. Needs to get stronger at the POA and develop his combat skills, but great explosiveness for a 311# guy. Under the radar right now. I think he's worth a 2nd round pick. No need to consider him in the 1st round conversation right now, though he could be a riser.

10. Mario Edwards, Florida Tech. Like Hardison, a versatile guy with a ton of athleticism. Inconsistent. Not in the 1st round converstion right now. Day 2 guy worth considering.

11. Xavier Cooper, Washington St. A bit like Leonard Williams in his game. Under the radar, and probably a day 2 pick right now. Could move up if he does well at the Combine.

12. Ellis McCarthy, UCLA. Intriguing big guy with great athleticism and movement skills, but a project. Late day 2 / early day 3 pick, IMO.

So for me, personally, right now Goldman is the only guy I would clearly consider at 32 and consider trading up for. Brown is a late 1st/early 2nd consideration, and the other guys are probably 2nd round or later guys for me, possibly with a trade up. BB may well have a very different evaluation of some of these guys.

 

[patfanken]

Great info Mayo. Lots to think about. How about this scenario. Anyone you'd take in the first round is gone and you couldn't trade up. So pick 32 comes along. How about this:

1. You trade down into the teens and pick up a 2nd round pick next year and a 6th this year. With that pick in the teams you take a shot at Marcus Hardison. The with the 64th pick you take the top LG left on the board (assuming you liked him) Or.....

2. You trade down, get your pick for next year, and then select one of the better edge rushers that are coming out. Then at 64 you pick Hardison. At that point you have 3 selections between around 96 and 100, with which you keep drafting LG's until you get it right

 

[manxman2601]

Lance Zierlein at nil.com has finally got round to doing Marcus Hardison and likes him. Ranks him 87th overall and compares him to Henry Melton:

STRENGTHS
Consistently times snap, and has the quick twitch to turn this trait into a quick penetration and win from inside. Has good arm length understands how to keep blockers away from his frame as pass rusher and brings force behind his hands. Rarely square as a pass rusher using shoulder and hip turn to get skinny and turn corner. Good hand fighter. Comes out of stance with low pad level and looks to capture an edge against the run. Puts something behind his tackles. Showed rapid improvement from midpoint of season all the way through Senior Bowl week.

WEAKNESSES
Natural defensive end still learning new position and vantage point. Inconsistent knee bend at contact as interior rusher causing pad level to rise and knocking him off balance. Lacks strength in lower body and get pushed around by plus run blockers when asked to hold the point. Gets redirected a little too easily at times when stunting. Fires off ball with head low and doesn’t see cut blocks coming. Big forward lean into run blockers rather than bringing hips and feet with him.

SOURCES TELL US
"Really, really quick for a big man. If you would have told me in October that he would end up with all that production and showing out at Senior Bowl practices I would have thought you were crazy. It just started click for him." -- NFC area scout

NFL COMPARISON
Henry Melton

BOTTOM LINE
A defensive end turned three-technique in a 4-3 defense with outstanding initial quickness off the snap and the hands and feet to be a disruptive, upfield player against plodding guards. Hardison needs more muscle in his lower body and is unlikely to fit defensive schemes looking for stack-and-shed interior defenders. Hardison has starting potential and might be able to come in as a situational pass rusher early on.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/marcus-hardison?id=2552672

So that's 87th at NFL, 80th at ESPN and 137th at CBS with the combine, where Hardison should really well, to come. It will probably need 64 or a trade back from there to get him.

Edit: Actually, netting two good players at 32 and 64 and then bundling 96 and the TB 4th to go up and get Hardison might be even more preferable. That will give us 3 top picks with the 3rd round compensatory still to come.

 

[RayClay]

Even with the ability of having 20-20 hindsight, Easley still is the better pick for this reason, Kenny. The impact DLman, next to QB is the most difficult resource to find, and when you get a chance to pick one, especially where we get to pick, you HAVE to take that risk. Bitonio might turn out to be an all pro LG for the next decade, but that's a risk too. Yet even if he did, if Easley turned into an "impact" DLman the risk is worth it.

It's important for me to note, that I am talking about IMPACT players, not merely decent or good ones. Impact guys are the ones OC's have do special things to solve. Impact guys are the ones DC's prepare game plans around. THOSE guys are truly rare and there are usually only 5-10 in the league at any one time, and the number drops considerable if you are only talking about interior DLmen.

Now Easley MIGHT not turn out to be that guy we hoped for. But even if he doesn't, you can't NOT take the shot when you have it.

...and Easley is a different type of impact DL. Getting that one impact 300 pounder can make the difference in having a great DL rotation for years or having just a bunch of role players. There seems to be only two big impact D linemen and we won't have a shot at them. Means we'll have to project one we have even a shot at moving up for. Maybe take a couple with upside.

 

[mayoclinic]

Great info Mayo. Lots to think about. How about this scenario. Anyone you'd take in the first round is gone and you couldn't trade up. So pick 32 comes along. How about this:

1. You trade down into the teens and pick up a 2nd round pick next year and a 6th this year. With that pick in the teams you take a shot at Marcus Hardison. The with the 64th pick you take the top LG left on the board (assuming you liked him) Or.....

2. You trade down, get your pick for next year, and then select one of the better edge rushers that are coming out. Then at 64 you pick Hardison. At that point you have 3 selections between around 96 and 100, with which you keep drafting LG's until you get it right

Works for me. As Mike Loyko notes:

This draft there will be little separation in talent from pick 8-60. So trading out of #32 for multiple 2nds isn't a bad idea either.

https://twitter.com/NEPD_Loyko/status/567858613454258176

I like Eddie Goldman, but I also like Marcus Hardison and Mario Edwards. I like Bud Dupree, but I also like Danielle Hunter and Max Valles. I like TJ Clemmings and Cam Erving, but I also like Jeremiah Poutasi and AJ Cann.

Last year I wanted a disruptive presence up front, and I felt that Aaron Donald and Dominique Easley were elite talents with difference-making capability. In contrast, there are very few players in this draft who I think are that much better than the guys I could get 20-30 picks later, or sometimes more. Even with Todd Gurley - perhaps the closest thing to an elite difference maker that I currently see - there is Tevin Coleman and Jay Ajayi.

There just doesn't seem to be many people in this draft for whom I would trade up in the 1st round. Trading back seems to make more sense, if someone doesn't fall who the Pats like.