Top 10 All-Time Boston Clutch Sports Performers

[PonyExpress]

Russell was also never a 2 TD underdog in any of his Game 7s This is the problem with comparing guys in different sports.

As I've tried to point out, he did in fact lose an elimination game in his pro career, it just wasn't a game 7. Nobody's perfect, but Russell was damn close. Like bob ryan, we're all big fans of Russell, but there's no need to distort the reality to make him seem more "perfect" than he actually was...the guy lost over 50 playoff games, but won over a 100 too...that's amazing stuff.

I would like to see what Russell could do with a linebacker chasing him down. He's in my pantheon though...I just don't understand how a "ranking" is possible unless we're just picking favorites. If I had to rank them I'd definitely put Ruth over Russell, perhaps even based strictly on what he did with the Sox. Although we're rightly including Russell's college and olympic career so I'll include Ruth's Yankee career as well.

I do have a major problem ranking Havlicek above TB on any list...but it's hard to know just how serious this effort was.

thanks for playing.:bricks:

You seem to have something against Russell. Any objective fan would put him #1 one in Boston. His achievements are beyond mindboggling.

 

[scout]

Not sure if there is one player that rates more then this team effort, but this thread would not be deserving if we didn't mention the 1980 Gold Medal U.S. hockey team. Since there were a number of Boston players, if I had to name one I'd go with the goalie, Jim Craig. How would he not be clutch and help achieve the biggest upset in the history of sports.

 

[shakadave]

Didn't read the posts...so not sure if it's been mentioned...but how bout the 3 Hendersons...

My claim to fame is that I was at the game in Anaheim when Hendu hit the Game 5 home run. The headline the next day in the L.A. Times said "Angels Go From Heaven To Boston"!

P.S. Gerald, O.K., and then who's the 3rd Henderson?

 

[Zuma]

Ricky?????

http://www.projo.com/sports/jimdonaldson/projo_20060213_13jdcol.8717956.html

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

It is understandable that our patriot board would put Brady as #1. Personally, I think Larry Bird and Bobby Orr are the clutch players of all time.

I'm glad that Flutie is gone. There are proably 50 players more deserving, starting with Ted Williams, and even Babe Ruth

I'd put Cousy in instead of Cowens.

I know Cousy was great, and I take nothing away from him, but I started watching sports intensively around '73, '74, and Cowens was just this guy that stood out to me.

Hard nosed, very consistent and dependable...my first real conecpetion of a "clutch" player...you could see the whole team elevate when he came in...in that sense, he was very much like Bird...

W could prbably go to a top 20 or top 25 with this list, but I had to get back to work! (LOL)...

ADPF

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

Evidently you were not around in 67. So, because he made the last out 75 and 78 he's not clutch? Down the stretch in 1967 they could not get him out. Check his stats. He carried that team which was a last place team the year before, and brought the pennant to Boston. You want to pout about '78, then pout about Torrez, the idiot who didn't think he needed to warm up after a delay before he pitched to F'ing dent.

I was privileged to watch Yaz play from around '73 until his career ended ('83, I think?)

He was my favorite Red Sox player until Jim Rice came along...

But, he, or Rice, or someone like a Steve Grogan (who I think of as totally clutch), ever won a ring, so they can't qualify for this list...

ADPF

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

Cy Young..........

Right...

And how could I leave off the Babe!

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

Excellent posts!

I actually read this whole thread and there were some amazing points and observations...

All said, though, I still feel good about Brady as my number one, although Bird certainly a VERY close second...

Brady just delivers.

Where would you rank Joe Montana on a list? Most people would have him number #1 or #2, true?

Well, Brady is right there with Montana, IMO...

BY the time his career is done, NFL fans (not just Pats fans) will be referring to him as arguably the greatest ever...


Montana (clutch) had his Marino (stats)...

Brady (clutch) has his Manning (STATS)...

ADPF

 

[scout]

I was privileged to watch Yaz play from around '73 until his career ended ('83, I think?)

He was my favorite Red Sox player until Jim Rice came along...

But, he, or Rice, or someone like a Steve Grogan (who I think of as totally clutch), ever won a ring, so they can't qualify for this list...

ADPF

I have to agree with you on the ring thing, ditto for others on the list, ringless. Here is how impressive Yaz was in the stretch drive in 67', where the race was won on the last day of the year (I believe 3 clubs were still in it on the last day). This was my first year of my Red Sox addiction.
Baseball experts say it was one of the greatest displays of hitting in baseball history.
Final 12 games: 523, 5HR, 16 RBI.
Final 7 games: 560 3HR, 13RBI, 1 SB
10 hits in his final 13 at bats.
Final game: 4-4
World Series: 400, 3HR, 5RBI (Three of these games were against Gibson)

Definition of Clutch: Carl Yaztremski

 

[the taildragger]

You seem to have something against Russell. Any objective fan would put him #1 one in Boston. His achievements are beyond mindboggling.

I agree Pony -- absolutely mindboggling.

The quote you're responding to was my attempt to correct those who have continually suggested that Russell is undefeated in "elimination games." Everyone knows Russell's Celtics were the greatest basketball team in history -- their record needs no further embellishment.

my original post in this thread praised Russell ad nauseum...I actually made the best case for him.

My first point was that by calling him a "boston icon" we're doing him a major disservice. I feel the same about Orr, Brady, Bird, Ruth, etc... My pantheon is UNRANKED. there's no point in going to a Hall of Fame and ranking everyone. This whole "WHO'S #1" thing is something I don't subscribe to because you're comparing athletes from different:
a: positions
b: sports
c: eras
d: team qualities

I consider myself a fan of both Russell and Bird, but I'd want Bird at the end of a tie game (i.e. "clutch"), and I'd want Russell to start my team...I'd want Orr at the end of a tie game, but I'd take Gretzky to start my team.

The subject here is "clutch" athletes...I actually brought up specific clutch situations in Russell's career which support his case...others have simply outlined his overall team record...and done so incorrectly. If we're going to compare athletes based on team accomplishments then I'm going to factor in the fact that Russell's team was twice as stacked as any other team in the league...

As you know, there are only 5 players on a team (not counting subsitutions). Russell played with 5 other HoFers, he had at least 3 other HoFers on the court throughout his career...if you're willing to put Russell on a pedestal for his team accomplishments, instead of his pure ability, then I don't see how you can ignore that 60%-80% of his team featured all-pro players. Brady's accomplishments have come on a team with 1 other all-pro (Seymour) out of 21 players (not including ST).

Does team strength diminish Russell's outstanding ability in the clutch?, not at all...but does it make his 15-1 record in elimination games less significant than say Brady's 10-1? -- how does it not?

I worship at Russell's altar -- we're all opinionated and therefore NOT "objective," and I'm certainly no different -- but I try to keep a healthy perspective when it comes to making these types of comparisons.

I hope we can continue this dialogue -- I don't have all the answers, it's a totally SUBJECTIVE debate which I'm simply trying to fill out a bit. I just wish we could all bring something to the table instead of....

YEAHH BILL RUSSELL!!! AWESOME BABY!!!! YEAHH!!!!

 

[PonyExpress]

I agree Pony -- absolutely mindboggling.

The quote you're responding to was my attempt to correct those who have continually suggested that Russell is undefeated in "elimination games." Everyone knows Russell's Celtics were the greatest basketball team in history -- their record needs no further embellishment.

my original post in this thread praised Russell ad nauseum...I actually made the best case for him.

My first point was that by calling him a "boston icon" we're doing him a major disservice. I feel the same about Orr, Brady, Bird, Ruth, etc... My pantheon is UNRANKED. there's no point in going to a Hall of Fame and ranking everyone. This whole "WHO'S #1" thing is something I don't subscribe to because you're comparing athletes from different:
a: positions
b: sports
c: eras
d: team qualities

I consider myself a fan of both Russell and Bird, but I'd want Bird at the end of a tie game (i.e. "clutch"), and I'd want Russell to start my team...I'd want Orr at the end of a tie game, but I'd take Gretzky to start my team.

The subject here is "clutch" athletes...I actually brought up specific clutch situations in Russell's career which support his case...others have simply outlined his overall team record...and done so incorrectly. If we're going to compare athletes based on team accomplishments then I'm going to factor in the fact that Russell's team was twice as stacked as any other team in the league...

As you know, there are only 5 players on a team (not counting subsitutions). Russell played with 5 other HoFers, he had at least 3 other HoFers on the court throughout his career...if you're willing to put Russell on a pedestal for his team accomplishments, instead of his pure ability, then I don't see how you can ignore that 60%-80% of his team featured all-pro players. Brady's accomplishments have come on a team with 1 other all-pro (Seymour) out of 21 players (not including ST).

Does team strength diminish Russell's outstanding ability in the clutch?, not at all...but does it make his 15-1 record in elimination games less significant than say Brady's 10-1? -- how does it not?

I worship at Russell's altar -- we're all opinionated and therefore NOT "objective," and I'm certainly no different -- but I try to keep a healthy perspective when it comes to making these types of comparisons.

I hope we can continue this dialogue -- I don't have all the answers, it's a totally SUBJECTIVE debate which I'm simply trying to fill out a bit. I just wish we could all bring something to the table instead of....

YEAHH BILL RUSSELL!!! AWESOME BABY!!!! YEAHH!!!!

Good points all... I don't think Brady has reached the stratosphere of Russell. The real argument is Bird vs. Brady for #2. My take is until Brady wins #4, or gets to two more SBs, Bird is ahead of him. But Brady is the only one among them whose history is still being written. When he wins 4, Brady passes Bird. If he can win 5 SBs, the most ever by an NFL QB, then let the Brady/Russell debate begin in earnest...

 

[the taildragger]

I actually read this whole thread and there were some amazing points and observations...

All said, though, I still feel good about Brady as my number one, although Bird certainly a VERY close second...

Brady just delivers.

Where would you rank Joe Montana on a list? Most people would have him number #1 or #2, true?

Well, Brady is right there with Montana, IMO...

BY the time his career is done, NFL fans (not just Pats fans) will be referring to him as arguably the greatest ever...

Montana (clutch) had his Marino (stats)...

Brady (clutch) has his Manning (STATS)...

ADPF

IMO, it's our guy over Montana...I made a fairly extensive case in this thread: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=34246

you have to scroll a little, but I penned two lengthy posts in there that outline why Montana is -- gulp -- a tad overrated (at least when comparing him to TB).

It's close, but I'd probably take Marino over Montana if you put a gun to my head...and I'd definitely take Brady over Marino.

As far as Manning -- and this is the football fan talking, not the Pats fan -- he's the ultimate system QB who falls apart against solid defense. He is NOT a choker, he is merely overrated.

by the way, brady has tremendous stats...he's right on Marino's career record setting TD pace...and when you compare his FIRST FIVE YEARS to Manning's FIRST FIVE YEARS, the YPA is identical, the COM% is identical, Manning has a slight edge in yards, completions and attempts...but brady has manning whipped in TD to INT ratio. This is despite having far less to work with than Manning, while playing outdoors on grass in the northeast. When Brady plays in a dome his stats are right in line with Manning, and again, that's with Antowain Smith in the backfield and Branch and Givens at WR. Statistically speaking Brady is flat out phenomenal.

Having said that, Manning is on pace to smash every passing record in existence, but as long as he plays in a pure timing-based system designed to protect him from a pass rush, he will be hammered by solid defenses time and time again...this is why skills trump stats.

 

[the taildragger]

Good points all... I don't think Brady has reached the stratosphere of Russell. The real argument is Bird vs. Brady for #2. My take is until Brady wins #4, or gets to two more SBs, Bird is ahead of him. But Brady is the only one among them whose history is still being written. When he wins 4, Brady passes Bird. If he can win 5 SBs, the most ever by an NFL QB, then let the Brady/Russell debate begin in earnest...

agree that he's not on that level in terms of career accomplishments...but both BR and TB reside in my "all time clutch pantheon of sports" -- so on that basis, they are IMO comparable at this time. I tried to keep it to one athlete per sport, but I couldn't help adding Bird AND Jordan (non-boston) to the list -- IMO, Bird defined clutch every bit as much as Russell.

 

[PonyExpress]

IMO, it's our guy over Montana...I made a fairly extensive case in this thread: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=34246

you have to scroll a little, but I penned two lengthy posts in there that outline why Montana is -- gulp -- a tad overrated (at least when comparing him to TB).

It's close, but I'd probably take Marino over Montana if you put a gun to my head...and I'd definitely take Brady over Marino.

As far as Manning -- and this is the football fan talking, not the Pats fan -- he's the ultimate system QB who falls apart against solid defense. He is NOT a choker, he is merely overrated.

by the way, brady has tremendous stats...he's right on Marino's career record setting TD pace...and when you compare his FIRST FIVE YEARS to Manning's FIRST FIVE YEARS, the YPA is identical, the COM% is identical, Manning has a slight edge in yards, completions and attempts...but brady has manning whipped in TD to INT ratio. This is despite having far less to work with than Manning, while playing outdoors on grass in the northeast. When Brady plays in a dome his stats are right in line with Manning, and again, that's with Antowain Smith in the backfield and Branch and Givens at WR. Statistically speaking Brady is flat out phenomenal.

Having said that, Manning is on pace to smash every passing record in existence, but as long as he plays in a pure timing-based system designed to protect him from a pass rush, he will be hammered by solid defenses time and time again...this is why skills trump stats.

There is one hole in your Brady vs. Manning statistical comparison. Manning played his rookie season. So if you compare Manning in years 2-6 against Brady 1-5, you will see that Manning in year 6 began a trend of higher completion % (67) and lower INTs (10) in year 6. I think Brady was headed in that direction last year until the abdominal problems (assuming they contributed to the awful KC game). Until Brady shows that kind of regular season improvement, Manning will hold the regular season crown, whatever that is worth. We all know who is better with the money on the table. But I disagree with your opinion on Montana. Montana was a more consistently accurate deep thrower than Brady has up till now shown himself. The 2004 AFCCG vs Pittsburgh showed that Brady can throw a deep post pattern with the best, but this ability is not often on display (see the NO game last year). Also, Montana had not only excellent pocket presence, but was an excellent scrambler, adding an extra dimension to his game. As big a fan of Brady as I am, I have to give the edge to Montana. Of course, if Brady can win 5 SBs I will change my tune. As far as Marino goes, I don't think he's in the conversation. He always struck me, even in his prime (84-86) as a "dumb" player, and I was not surprised at all to learn he scored a 14 on his wonderlic. He threw tons of bad INTs, he was an arrogant prick to his teammates, and he eviscerated the Phins running game with his own ego. I put Marino in the second class with Favre and Jim Kelly. First class seating I reserve for Staubach, Montana and Brady of the QBs I have seen play.

 

[maverick4]

re

Bill Russell won 11 NBA championships. He lost a playoff elimination game something like one time in his entire life. I think Russell is the clear #1.

Brady/Bird are in the top 4, but it's too early to judge Brady until his career is over.

.

 

[ilduce06410]

rethink "Great"

Bill Russell won 11 NBA championships. He lost a playoff elimination game something like one time in his entire life. I think Russell is the clear #1.
Brady/Bird are in the top 4, but it's too early to judge Brady until his career is over.
there are about 10 players i can recall who did something superhuman in the nick of time, an incredible play. no order at all here.
bernie carbo
dave hendu henderson
our boy forever, doug flutie
john havlicek
bruschi may have a couple plays in this category.
Joan Benoit
a few more,, hope ya get my point.

but they are not great in the sense of a player whose feats made him larger than his team. whos play changed the game. his league, who seemed to rise above everyone at the crucial instant.

now greatest clutch players?
Orr
Eddie Shore a bruins goalie from the 1920s
Russell
harry agganis, a great, great local and professional athlete. think of doug flutie with talent (that's right). he was putting up lou gehrig numbers in his early 20s. he dropped dead one day, it was far more crushing than even reggie lewis.

i for the sake of a few oldtimers i gotta insist on his name.

 

[DarthPatriot]

Bill Russell won 11 NBA championships. He lost a playoff elimination game something like one time in his entire life. I think Russell is the clear #1.
Brady/Bird are in the top 4, but it's too early to judge Brady until his career is over.
there are about 10 players i can recall who did something superhuman in the nick of time, an incredible play. no order at all here.
bernie carbo
dave hendu henderson
our boy forever, doug flutie
john havlicek
bruschi may have a couple plays in this category.
Joan Benoit
a few more,, hope ya get my point.

but they are not great in the sense of a player whose feats made him larger than his team. whos play changed the game. his league, who seemed to rise above everyone at the crucial instant.

now greatest clutch players?
Orr
Eddie Shore a bruins goalie from the 1920s
Russell
harry agganis, a great, great local and professional athlete. think of doug flutie with talent (that's right). he was putting up lou gehrig numbers in his early 20s. he dropped dead one day, it was far more crushing than even reggie lewis.

i for the sake of a few oldtimers i gotta insist on his name.

No love for Calvin Shiraldi? That man had the eye of the tiger..utterly fearless!Me bizarro Boston fan.Me love him.

 

[maverick4]

re

As much as I am a fan of Tom Brady, there is almost no way Brady will be able to rank ahead of Russell in this category. Tom Brady is a selfless, team-first guy who cares only about winning, but Russell was like that even more so. Here is an excerpt and link about this guy's career:

--------------------
John Havlicek remembers the day Bill Russell put the present professional basketball world in perspective.

“It was one of those Las Vegas celebrity golf tournaments,†the Celtics’ Hall of Famer said. “The Bulls had just won another championship and someone walked up to Bill Russell and said, ‘What do you think of the Bulls winning three in a row?'â€

“Russell looked at him and said, ‘Not much.'â€

Bill Russell meant no disrespect to Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen or Phil Jackson. But when you were the key individual on 11 championship teams during a 13-year NBA career, you are a hard grader.
--------------------
Link to the article:
http://www.nba.com/encyclopedia/players/bill_russell.html

 

[Bostonian1962]

We're spoiled in relation to championships. One clutch player doesn't mean a championship.

Carl Yastrzemski, Dennis Johnson, Rico Petrocelli (hit far better with men on base). K.C.Jones. Havlicek

Of course Russell, Brady Bird.

Hope I'm not the first to say Troy Brown. Ty Law, Rodney Willie Mcginest, Bruschi, Vinatieri.

Pats are going to be overrepresented since they closed the deal.

Bill Belichick, Red Auerbach

Somebody smart enough to include Dennis Johnson. Well done Ray Clay!

 

[the taildragger]

guys, I think we're having two separate discussions...

this thread is about CLUTCH athletes...if you're going to claim Russell was way more clutch than Brady then please make the case.

this is NOT a comparison of team accomplishments.

I was the only one in this thread who brought up SPECIFIC CLUTCH SITUATIONS IN WHICH RUSSELL SHINED.

IMO, russell and brady are ABSOLUTELY on par in terms of their ability in the clutch.

Pony, I couldn't disagree with you more about Montana having a better deep ball than Brady -- Please factor into the analysis that Tom has had midget receivers and, other than 2004, has not had a legit play action threat -- the only reason antowain smith ever ran anywhere was because of the 4/5 WR sets we used and the fact that the D was flooded with DBs -- if you have a QB who can pull off what Tom did with those spread sets, then your RB can sometimes look like Jim Brown.

The WC offense was a run-after-catch offense. Montana struggled not only with the deep ball, but the 25 yard darts in zone coverage (which he was rarely asked to throw but had Clark, Jones, Rice, Taylor and Craig to help out when necessary)...Brady makes every pass look effortless...there is no comparison in my opinion.

Montana was great at buying extra time outside the pocket, but Tom can roll out when needed too...QBs who throw as well as Brady and Marino inside the pocket do not need to roll out as much as Montana did in the WC offense.

As far as Manning's rookie year, when you have Marshall Faulk in his prime in the backfield, your first year counts. My point on stats was not that brady will ever catch manning, but that stats are the product of systems, you can't use them to compare QBs unless both QBs play with the same personnel and scheme...you have to use your eyes. When I see manning and brady play against quality defense it becomes obvious who the better QB is.

Marino was hardly a dumb player, he was however an EGOMANIAC who cared less about winning than showing off -- his biggest problem was coachability -- even Shula, at an advanced point in his career, couldn't rein him in. As tough as he was on the field on teammates, he was the most loved and respected guy on his team. He just needed a coach with an iron fist...stylistically brady has way more in common with marino than montana...but the intangibles are more in line with montana -- so we get the best of both worlds.