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Tomase on McFadden and Maroney

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by SVN, Dec 9, 2007.

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  1. BelizePats

    BelizePats Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I'd say the chances of us actually using the #2 pick in the draft is about 1 in a 100. Yes, it is possible, but it does not fit the BB/SP draft profile. The cap is going up but, that does not mean that our management will now decide that their dollar spending philosophy should be thrown out the window. Spending all that guarenteed money on a player who has not played a down in the NFL is similar to the Pats not being willing to draft a young ILB. They just don't see the value in doing so.
    If we do end up with the second pick in the draft, I hope to hell that Mcfadden is still there. Yes, Miami has a feature back. But that teams management is so dreadful that would it really surpise anyone here if they picked Mcfadden? (Hello Ted Ginn) There will be at least 5 or 6 teams desperate for a consensus impact offensive player of McFaddens caliber. And of those teams a couple will be willing to overpay to get him. This is where the real value of the pick rests.
    The Cowboys, with two late firsts does make sense. And while we're at it, how about a second in 2009 as well.
    Respects,

    Rich
     
  2. Cannon Arm

    Cannon Arm On the Game Day Roster

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    D-Mac is very tough. He applies hits on guys before they tackle him, and with his speed carrying the force, it adds about 15 pounds to his size for a would-be tackler, so he's not a finesse RB. In fact, he loves blocking and he's great at it. People don't fully appreciate what a horrible, horrible team the Razorbacks are offensively and that every team they faced played to stop the run on ever snap. The most appealing thing to Belichick would be that D-Mac is so versatile. It's not just that he can throw the ball, because most football players can do that generally. Of his 13 completed passes in the past two seasons, two were for +25 yds: 42 yds and a TD and 28 yds. That's a weapon that can create all kinds of problems for defenses (not that we're going to be taking the ball out of Brady's hands, of course).

    The reason Maroney annoys me is that he's playing on a team with Brady and Moss and Welker and Stallworth and he still can't find holes to exploit often enough.
     
  3. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Pro Bowl Player

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    This seems to be the main point that you're missing. Ever since Morris went down, Maroney's production has dropped drastically. Could it be because Maroney lacks the toughness to be the premier back by himself? His lack of production in recent games, plus corroborating reports that the coaching staff questions Maroney's toughness lead me to believe that Maroney is on shaky ground. Maybe it's easy for you to rely on blind faith alone, but the numbers paint an entirely different picture of Maroney and the Pats RB situation. When it's 3rd and short who gets the carry? More often than not it's Evans, Brady, Faulk or Eckel. That tells you a lot right there.

    Exactly, anyone that has seen DMac run can tell that he is a powerful, downhill runner. The kid can run INSIDE and outside. He's got the power and the speed. In other words DMac is a franchise feature back.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  4. ALP

    ALP Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    diddnt we make a pact about this? lets focus on maroney AFTER we either lose, or win the SB???
     
  5. RussFrancis

    RussFrancis Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    'Blind faith' as you refer to it here is all we NE fans really need. Why wouldnt we? The brilliance of Belichick and the intelligence advantage he possesses over every other coach in the league leads me to concede. The difference between you and I here is that I just trust what theyre doing a little more. And Im not suggesting that there's no room for honest questions. Question away. But believe in what these guys do. We can draw conclusions until we're blue in the face. But Im not about to believe 'reports', whether corroberated or not, about what Belichick is doing. BB simply doesnt divulge information to reporters. 'Reports' are unbelievably meaningless with him. You bring up the point that Maroney's production has gone down since the 1st 3 weeks. And I point out how at that time, they had a healthy Morris to also count on. After Maroney came back, that 2nd feature back hasnt been there. That's all Im saying. Without Morris available, the approach with Maroney has changed. I dont see it as a lack of trust in the guy. I see it as using him smart. Not throwing him into short yardage situations that a guy like Eckel or Evans can be successful in is not a red flag to me. Any of those backs can get a yard or 2. That's what fullbacks do. Why wouldnt be using them in those situations? We dont need Maroney in those situations. Again, the idea is to limit the risk of him getting re-injured needlessly. Save him for when it matters most. He made some big plays last week that made a difference in the game and contributed to the win. When he was needed. Plays that fullbacks dont typically make. Those are the kind of plays we'll need from him beyond week 17. And that's why he's not being handed the ball 20 plus times a game right now.
     
  6. Oswlek

    Oswlek In the Starting Line-Up

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    BB acutally calls in unsolicited after the Philly game to sya how much he loves Laurence Maroney and wishes he had more like him on the team: The haters all cry, "BB would never say how he really feels! Never believe a word he says!"

    BB "reportedly" admonishes Maroney's toughness with absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the report is accurate: "See! BB agrees with me!"

    Give me a break.
     
  7. FrontSeven

    FrontSeven Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Skinny-legged woman ain't got no soul!
     
  8. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    *ROFLMAO* Yeah. OK. This is Tomase we are talking about. Since Breer left, Tomase can't get a decent article out to save his life.

    Tomase has regularly been WRONG and been caught being another WRONG BORGES.

    So, forgive me if I think that Tomase read your post and took it as someone from the Patriots actually talking. He's that dumb.
     
  9. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    WOW. I guess you believe EVERYTHING you read in the newspaper, don't you?

    I can't believe you are so stupid as to believe Tomase's spewings.
     
  10. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    1) The Cowboys have 2 #1 backs. They regularly have one of them riding the bench.

    2) The Cowboys, Packers, and Colts have NOT been up 35-7 on a team at half-time.

    3) When the Cowboys were winning big, they DID put in Tyson Thompson to close out the game.

    You really should have your facts together before you ask questions because you look silly when someone else has the answers.
     
  11. FrontSeven

    FrontSeven Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Agreed, and agreed, and agreed.

    Rich, you have personal messages shut off on this message board. If you're in Cayo tell me where you hang in SI and I'll try to make a game there over the next two weeks. I say "try" because I'll be in the boonies with Johnny Rambo most of the time.

    Paul FrontSeven
     
  12. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    It does NOTHING of the sort and your an idiot for saying it does.

    Tomase's article is the equivalent of saying "My Brother's wife's mother's cousin 3 times removed told me <blah blah blah>.

    OH. BTW, SFBs, Bill Belichick came out and said that he LOVED Maroney and what he does. Why do you believe this idiot Tomase over Belichick?
     
  13. SVN

    SVN Hall of Fame Poster

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    :rofl: ....well said.
     
  14. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    *Sigh* There is just no getting through to you, is there. You have every excuse in the books to ignore reality.

    Forget that the Pats have played some very tough run defenses and exploited them by going with a Pass-happy offense. Forget that in 2 of those games, the Pats had such a dominating lead that they put Maroney on the bench to try NOT to run up the score.

    On 3rd and SHORT, its Faulk because he's our 3rd down back. Why the hell do you continue to IGNORE reality in that the Pats have a multi-back system? They use Faulk on 3rd downs. Evans as their short-yardage back. Maroney for 1st/2nd downs.

    That has been CONSISTENT all year. Even when Morris was around. The Pats would use Faulk on 3rd downs. Morris was the #2/short yardage back when he was healthy. When Maroney was out, yes, he "carried the load", but you also need to realize that the Pats didn't run the ball nearly as much with him as the lead back. With Maroney healthy, the Pats ran the ball 33 times (on avg.) in each of the 1st 3 games. When Maroney was out, they only ran the ball 28 times a game (on avg.). Since game 6, the Pats have only run the ball an avg. of 22 times with a high of 28. Don't you think that has more to do with the GAME PLAN? I do.




    If I had a dollar for every college running back I heard that about, I'd be a rich man.
     
  15. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Some people just have to piss in the punch bowl and ruin the party for everyone. So, yet again, here we go:

    Week 01: Jets (26th), leading rusher is Maroney w/72 yards on 20 carries
    Week 02: Chargers (21st), leading rusher: Maroney w/77 yards on 15 carries
    Week 03: Bills (21st), leading rusher: Maroney w/103 yards on 19 carries

    Now, during these 3 weeks, the Patriots were splitting most of the carries between Morris and Maroney, for totals of: 37, 32, and 38 carries by the team. In all 3 of these games, Maroney was the game's leading rusher

    Maroney gets injured

    Week 04: Bengals (21st), leading rusher: Morris w/117 yards on 21 carries
    Week 05: Browns (30th), leading rusher: Morris w/102 yards on 21 carries
    Week 06: Dallas (7th), Morris has 14 yards on 10 carries

    Morris gets injured in Dallas game
    Now, during these 3 weeks, Morris was a featured back. The team ran 34, 32, and 29 times. Morris feasted on two bad running defenses, but got only 1.4 ypc against the first decent rush defense the team had faced all season.

    Maroney returns

    Week 07: Miami (26th), Maroney gets 31 yards on 6 carries (5.2 ypc)
    Week 08: Redskins (7th) Maroney is leading rusher w/75 yards on 14 carries
    Week 09: Colts (14th) Maroney has 59 yards on 15 carries
    Week 10: Bye

    Here, in these 3 games, we see Maroney taking limited snaps but being very effective in the first two games. In fact, against the league's #7 rush defense (Washington), Maroney puts up 5.4 ypc and is the game's leading rusher. The team rushing attempts (22, 35, 28) are sensible given the teams faced and the strategies employed. Miami, for example, saw it's safeties drop like flies, making running the ball a needless exercise, particularly in Maroney's first game back.

    Week 11: Bills (21st), Maroney gets 19 yards on 6 attempts
    Week 12: Eagles (5th), Maroney gets 31 yards on 10 carries
    Week 13: Ravens (1st), Maroney gets 44 yards on 13 carries

    These 3 games are the only games that anyone should even question in the slightest regarding Maroney and, in fact, it's only the Buffalo game that should truly lead to questions. The Eagles and Ravens are two of the best rushing defenses in the league, so throwing the ball more in those games makes sense. This is particularly true in the case of the Ravens, a team that's putting up historic numbers against the run. The one questionable game against the Bills is the game where a public situation arose, with the team reporting a Maroney injury and Maroney denying he was hurt. As members of the public, we don't know what happened here: miscommunication, Maroney telling a fib, a minor 'tweak' being blown out of proportion, etc... We simply don't know. For the record, New England ran 29, 16, and 24 times in the three games. Also, for the record, when New England played the vaunted Vikings rush defense last season, with Dillon and Maroney, they only ran the ball 15 times. Clearly, limiting the number of rushes against a strong running team is not a foreign idea to BB and the team.

    Week 14: Pittsburgh, ?

    Pittsburgh is 3rd in the NFL against the run, so it should come as no surprise if the Patriots take their game to the air again and eschew the run.

    So, to sum up: Maroney has played in 9 games, including the Miami game which was a clear case of getting him just a couple of runs to see how he was able to handle game contact again. In those 9 games, he's been the game's leading rusher 4 times. Now, given that the team was clearly not going to focus on the run in the Eagles or Ravens games, and given that the team was behind in the Colts game, that cuts the number of 'rush friendly games" down to 6. If you then remove the Miami game (1st back), you get a situation where Maroney has been the game's leading rusher in 4 of the 5 games you'd have expected his running to be a factor, and only the second Buffalo game stands out as unusual.

    Does this show that Maroney is an elite back? Absolutely not. What is does show, however, to those who actually break down the games rather than just blindly pursue an agenda, is that Maroney has been fine for the team. He hasn't been a 'bust', and he's tended to get the job done in most of his games. Wasting a pick on McFadden is a luxury that a team with needs on the OL (this team really needs a dominant tackle) and in the LB corps (and maybe the CB position as well) simply can't afford.
     
  16. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Pro Bowl Player

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    Morris got injured early in the Dallas game. I think that Morris/Maroney made a fine rushing combo. But note how quickly Maroney's production totals drop without Morris to share the load.

    Indeed the last 3 games ARE cause for questioning Maroney as his vaunted "YPC" stat over the last 3 games is now a lowly 3.2 ypc.
    Note that Maroney has also only reached the 70 yard mark ONCE in 7 games without Morris, and that he has reached 100 yards 0 times without Morris to share the load. Conclusion, Maroney is better suited as a complementary back and CANNOT get the job done without a guy like Morris sharing the football. Thanks for helping to prove my point. :)
    Now, let's draft a real #1 back so that Maroney can function properly in his role as a good #2 RB sidekick.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  17. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Umm..... it hasn't. That's the entire point. Maroney's production has been fine, despite the team's facing better rush defenses since Morris has gone down. You like to overlook the obvious, but not everyone else is so willing to do so. Since Morris went down (against the only decent run defense he faced, when he got a whopping 1.4 ypc), Maroney has run against the league's 1st, 5th, and 7th ranked defenses, and he's run for better ypc numbers than 2 of those 3 teams normally yield. Now, let's note the obvious correlation here: As the team has faced better rushing defenses, the team hasn't rushed as well, or as often overall. Maroney, however, has fared better against these better defenses than most running backs have. Oh, and for the record, the rookie phenom who's already being given a plaque in Canton has had a 3.5 ypc game against the Eagles and a 3.3 ypc rushing game against the Lions. I guess he needs to be relegated to a #2 back status right away, right?



    Once again, you either can't read or you're too blinded by an agenda to grasp simple concepts. Maroney's output against the Ravens, for example, was BETTER than most teams have been able to put up against them. The Ravens are only allowing 2.8 yards per carry for the season. In fact, Willis McGahee has been the game's leading rusher in every game the Ravens have played this season with the exception of the Chargers game where LDT outrushed him by amassing a whopping 77 yards on 24 carries (3.21 ypc). Maroney, in a game you're trying to cite as an example of bad production, got 44 yards on 13 carries (3.4 ypc). You do understand that this means Maroney was more productive against the Ravens on a per play basis then LDT was when it came to running the ball, right?

    Your arguments simply don't hold up. The injury nonsense has been shown to be just that, the production nonsense has been exposed and, frankly, you've been exposed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  18. Disco Volante

    Disco Volante Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #12 Jersey

    Morris/Maroney/Faulk is still one hell of a lineup for next year.
     
  19. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Pro Bowl Player

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    You're right, what was I thinking? 3.2 ypc is simply a BRILLIANT string of performances over the past 3 games! Nevermind that he didn't get to even the 50 yards mark ONCE. I asked for 70 but clearly I was foolish to desire such godly production!

    I have now seen the light! Tell me will Maroney average more than 3.2 YPC vs the Steelers? Oooh maybe he'll hit 3.5, then we should praise the heavens and dance in the streets??! :rolleyes: Will Maroney even reach 70 yards vs the Steelers? The Magic 8-ball says doubtful.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  20. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Context, per Webster's:

    Sadly, trying to get you to grasp context seems to be like trying to get a rock to grasp astrophysics. 3.4>2.8 I know.... tough for you to understand.
     
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