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Tom Brady the Least of Patriots 4th Quarter Problems


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It certainly is.

An 11 point 4th quarter lead vs Arizona (20-9 w/ 14 minutes to go).

A 9 point 4th quarter lead vs Baltimore (30-21 w/ 14:10 to go).

A 13 point 4th quarter lead vs Seattle (23-10 w/ 9:21 to go).

With a 2ndary like we have, a two score with almost a qtr to go is nothing.
 
Frankly, Im quite disgusted with this hen-pecking at Brady.

I think I owe Ivan an apology. This must be how he feels when people make these kind of ingracious, idiotic statements about Welker. :mad:
 
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I don't see how anyone could have watched the Pats big games since 2005 and still believe Brady is super clutch. That is a fan delusion. How many times do we have to see him underperform in big games to finally accept this? It's not the end of the world, the Pats just have to win in other ways, by committing to a balanced offense and a real defensive coordinator.

The Pats can win 10 games in a row to close the season, but the problem in the playoffs will persist unless they truly commit to the run game.
 
It certainly is.

An 11 point 4th quarter lead vs Arizona (20-9 w/ 14 minutes to go).

A 9 point 4th quarter lead vs Baltimore (30-21 w/ 14:10 to go).

A 13 point 4th quarter lead vs Seattle (23-10 w/ 9:21 to go).

Actually, against Arizona we were trailing by 11.
 
Actually, against Arizona we were trailing by 11.


The defense can be looked at as giving up important 4th quarter pts in all three of those losses though, as it was 13-9 Arizona in the 4th quarter until the Cards scored to go ahead 20-9.

Understanding that no one can be perfect on defense in the 4th, one could still argue that all three of the losses had some defensive lapses. That needs to stop if we're going to improve.
 
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I don't see how anyone could have watched the Pats big games since 2005 and still believe Brady is super clutch. That is a fan delusion. How many times do we have to see him underperform in big games to finally accept this? It's not the end of the world, the Pats just have to win in other ways, by committing to a balanced offense and a real defensive coordinator.

The Pats can win 10 games in a row to close the season, but the problem in the playoffs will persist unless they truly commit to the run game.

Wow - that post is just loaded with provocative ideas. I tend to agree.

It's too much to ask Brady to bail out every segment of this team every week. The offense gets double digit leads and the whole team needs to play a role in protecting them.

On the defensive coordinator question - how good would this team be if Belichick had hired Wade Phillips as Defensive Coordinator when he got canned in Dallas? Or Steve Spagnuolo? Or maybe Jack Del Rio?
 
The fact that the offense has given the team a two score 4th quarter lead in each of the three losses tells me all I need to know on who's to blame for the 4th quarter losses.

In the 3 losses this year, the offense has scored a total of 1 TD in the 4th quarter.

Points scored in 4th quarter this year
6,9,3,31,0,3
Toss out the Buffalo outlier and the Pats offense is averaging 4.2 point/4th qtr
 
To continue my line of thought, looking at close games in the 2005 and 2006 seasons since those defenses were considered good, but were post clarification.

Code:
2005       Pats vs Pit
score:        23 - 20
4th qtr pts:  13 - 7

2005       Pats vs Atl
score:        31 - 28
4th qtr pts:   3 - 15

2005       Pats vs Bills
score:        21 - 16
4th qtr pts:  14 - 6

2005       Pats vs Phins
score:        23 - 16
4th qtr pts:  11 - 9

2005       Pats vs NO
score:        24 - 17
4th qtr pts:   3 - 10

2005       Pats vs Phins
score:        26 - 28
4th qtr pts:  13 - 10

2006       Pats vs Bills
score:        19 - 17
4th qtr pts:   5 - 0

2006       Pats vs Jets
score:        24 - 17
4th qtr pts:   0 - 3

2006       Pats vs Ind
score:        20 - 27
4th qtr pts:   3 - 3

2006       Pats vs Jets
score:        14 - 17
4th qtr pts:   8 - 7

2006       Pats vs Chi
score:        17 - 13
4th qtr pts:  7 - 10

2006       Pats vs Jags
score:        24 - 21
4th qtr pts:   7 - 7

2006       Pats vs SD
score:        24 - 21
4th qtr pts:  11 - 7

2006       Pats vs Ind
score:        34 - 38
4th qtr pts:   6 - 17

Yeah certainly looks like holding teams to under a TD in the 4th was how we were handling close games...

In the 3 losses this year, the offense has scored a total of 1 TD in the 4th quarter.

Points scored in 4th quarter this year
6,9,3,31,0,3
Toss out the Buffalo outlier and the Pats offense is averaging 4.2 point/4th qtr

It does seem odd that this high powered offense seems to go into limp mode in situations where the old ones seemed to score points. Obviously blaming Brady is a complete cop out, but there's clearly something wrong on that side of the ball.
 
I don't see how anyone could have watched the Pats big games since 2005 and still believe Brady is super clutch. That is a fan delusion. How many times do we have to see him underperform in big games to finally accept this? It's not the end of the world, the Pats just have to win in other ways, by committing to a balanced offense and a real defensive coordinator.

The Pats can win 10 games in a row to close the season, but the problem in the playoffs will persist unless they truly commit to the run game.

Right on!!! It's ridiculous how many fans refuse to believe their own eyes.
 
Wow - that post is just loaded with provocative ideas. I tend to agree.

It's too much to ask Brady to bail out every segment of this team every week. The offense gets double digit leads and the whole team needs to play a role in protecting them.

On the defensive coordinator question - how good would this team be if Belichick had hired Wade Phillips as Defensive Coordinator when he got canned in Dallas? Or Steve Spagnuolo? Or maybe Jack Del Rio?

In this case provocative = epic fail.

Brady has somehow managed to lug this outfit to the playoffs even in the most difficult of circumstances over the last several seasons. 2005 featured the loss of Rodney on the heels of Law's departure, TJ's pre camp retirement on the heels of Bruschi's stroke and the beginning of the end of the one and done phenomenon known as Clock Killin Dillon. Whole team melted down around him in Denver, starting with one of those ultimate Patriots HOFers flashing back to his fumblitis days and a bunch of other guys screwing up in an attempt to regroup via overachievement. That was the game where the legend of Ben Watson was born, and like most legends it was based on misconception. Had he just picked up his blitzer he never would have had to chase down a HOF corner - for all the good that did.

2006 - aka the year Brady did it with bugeyed smoke and mirrors on offense, the end of the shortlived Branch and Givens WR tandem, the even shorter lived Dillon era and the beginning of the end of the should have been shorter Dancing Maroney era. And no Rodney down the stretch and an aging midget WR playing DB on a flu ridden aging out veteran team. And all Mr. Miracle could do is stake them to a 3 score lead heading into the half of the AFCC in a hostile road environment. Freakin' choker.

Then we come to the real problem. The cause of the evolution of one loss at a time angst. The curse of the undefeated season on the heels of a scandal that would have crippled most teams... After which no defeat was ever expected or acceptable god damnit.

Then there was 2008. The year some here came to the conclusion that a guy they predicted would be a Walmart bagger before camp ended up leading the team to an 11 win season. After Brady somehow contributed to his own demise by not being conditioned or well enough prepared to evade Bernard Pollard in the absence of his usually reliable scat backs blocking because he was serving a pot suspension... Underscored what happens when QB's hook up with supermodels and clearly lose the Fiah in the Belly... That was when it first began to become trendy to discuss trading Brady while we still could.

Only the team never considered it, much to Scott Pioli's current chagrin. Brady had to work his way back in 2009 under constant attack by those seemingly oblivious to the corpse of Randy Moss simutaneously sucking any life out of the offense. And the defense...the defense...let's not even go there. Suffice it to say there is no excuse to be delayed by a minimal rush hour snow event that is predicted 24 hours in advance, let alone on a day when the HC had challenged everyone to be early from here on out and the QB whose wife gave birth in Boston overnight had no trouble showing up on time. A defense that got flat out pancaked by the Ravens in the first round of the playoffs. Oh, did I mention that happened the week after they lost the best slot WR in the league? Once again Brady disappointed the fan base, the 4th time that had happened in 18 playoff games. Really, what a choker.


Then we were on to 2010. All Tom could manage that season was a unanimous league MVP. On a team that had jettisoned Randy Moss and replaced him with Deion Branch in week 4 of a season in which the offense was transitioning to a two rookie TE's and the defense was entering full blown transition to what would ultimately become a 4-3 base. All the choker could manage with this crew though was a 14-2 regular season and another one and done in the playoffs to the upstart JETS who put 28 points on the board in fairly rapid succession including via muffed punt and recovery of a badly executed onside kick. Every time Brady closed the cap, it subsequently almost immediately widened. He should have done something about that for sure...

Then came another offensive season for the ages as the two TE offense took flight even as the defensive transition muddled along. But alas old Tom came up short again, painfully at the hands of the same crew who had ruined his last attempt at a come from behind superbowl victory by staging another last minutes one of their own. I guess we could categorize that as the anatomy of what constitutes a QB choker in the alternate universe some patsfans have occupied since February of 2008...

The same enlightened fans have been attempting to out this clown once and for all since the day he stepped into a throw (that I will always recall Randy Moss alligator arming for an INC) as Bernard Pollard crawled for his knee. He can't throw the deep ball despite the fact we hardly ever have a deep ball receiver worth throwing one to. He has been known to duck phantom pass rushers and failed to escape many others he clearly should have due to playing behind a line that is highly touted based on their one dimentional play when consistently augmented by guys he could otherwise be targeting. Sure he still has his moments when he somehow manages to dicate to opponents bringing front 7's to their knees faster than the Oregon Ducks... But when his still transitioning defense craps it's pants late in games he can't seem to single handedly find a way to cover their or his coaches or his suddenly out of rhythm offenses asses. What a stiff. Why not give Steve Young...oops, I mean Ryan Mallett a shot. He is after all the future and he has a laser rocket arm and when he does just fine we can trade Brady to some QB starved team like SF where he always wanted to play for 2 firsts and a second plus Patrick Willis...

That some apparently blind homers compare this guy to a giant like Montana is comical. Like teams Joe led ever failed to advance to the ultimate goal, or went one and done in consecutive post seasons or lost to playoff games to crappy regular season teams with marginal QBs like even say the Giants or Vikings, or lost 6+ games in his 23 playoff games career... Oh, wait. He did all those things. Go figure.

How good has Spagnolo's D been since he left the Giants? Jeebus, Del Rio?? LOL And Wade would likely struggle running BELICHICK'S defense even more than Pees or Patricia have... Those guys go to teams whose HC doesn't have a scheme of his own or the capacity to teach one to others. People who have issues with the coaching or coordinating on either side of the ball here need to own up to the fact that they have issues with Bill Belichick. Not some position coach or coordinator who is essentially doing what Bill tasked him with, running his offense or defense based on the roster he assembles. Those position coaches and coordinators will reel it in or ratchet it up based on Bill's directives. Period. Same deal for the QB. Just another tennant of Belichick's it is what it is mantra.
 
In this case provocative = epic fail.

Brady has somehow managed to lug this outfit to the playoffs even in the most difficult of circumstances over the last several seasons. 2005 featured the loss of Rodney on the heels of Law's departure, TJ's pre camp retirement on the heels of Bruschi's stroke and the beginning of the end of the one and done phenomenon known as Clock Killin Dillon. Whole team melted down around him in Denver, starting with one of those ultimate Patriots HOFers flashing back to his fumblitis days and a bunch of other guys screwing up in an attempt to regroup via overachievement. That was the game where the legend of Ben Watson was born, and like most legends it was based on misconception. Had he just picked up his blitzer he never would have had to chase down a HOF corner - for all the good that did.

2006 - aka the year Brady did it with bugeyed smoke and mirrors on offense, the end of the shortlived Branch and Givens WR tandem, the even shorter lived Dillon era and the beginning of the end of the should have been shorter Dancing Maroney era. And no Rodney down the stretch and an aging midget WR playing DB on a flu ridden aging out veteran team. And all Mr. Miracle could do is stake them to a 3 score lead heading into the half of the AFCC in a hostile road environment. Freakin' choker.

Then we come to the real problem. The cause of the evolution of one loss at a time angst. The curse of the undefeated season on the heels of a scandal that would have crippled most teams... After which no defeat was ever expected or acceptable god damnit.

Then there was 2008. The year some here came to the conclusion that a guy they predicted would be a Walmart bagger before camp ended up leading the team to an 11 win season. After Brady somehow contributed to his own demise by not being conditioned or well enough prepared to evade Bernard Pollard in the absence of his usually reliable scat backs blocking because he was serving a pot suspension... Underscored what happens when QB's hook up with supermodels and clearly lose the Fiah in the Belly... That was when it first began to become trendy to discuss trading Brady while we still could.

Only the team never considered it, much to Scott Pioli's current chagrin. Brady had to work his way back in 2009 under constant attack by those seemingly oblivious to the corpse of Randy Moss simutaneously sucking any life out of the offense. And the defense...the defense...let's not even go there. Suffice it to say there is no excuse to be delayed by a minimal rush hour snow event that is predicted 24 hours in advance, let alone on a day when the HC had challenged everyone to be early from here on out and the QB whose wife gave birth in Boston overnight had no trouble showing up on time. A defense that got flat out pancaked by the Ravens in the first round of the playoffs. Oh, did I mention that happened the week after they lost the best slot WR in the league? Once again Brady disappointed the fan base, the 4th time that had happened in 18 playoff games. Really, what a choker.


Then we were on to 2010. All Tom could manage that season was a unanimous league MVP. On a team that had jettisoned Randy Moss and replaced him with Deion Branch in week 4 of a season in which the offense was transitioning to a two rookie TE's and the defense was entering full blown transition to what would ultimately become a 4-3 base. All the choker could manage with this crew though was a 14-2 regular season and another one and done in the playoffs to the upstart JETS who put 28 points on the board in fairly rapid succession including via muffed punt and recovery of a badly executed onside kick. Every time Brady closed the cap, it subsequently almost immediately widened. He should have done something about that for sure...

Then came another offensive season for the ages as the two TE offense took flight even as the defensive transition muddled along. But alas old Tom came up short again, painfully at the hands of the same crew who had ruined his last attempt at a come from behind superbowl victory by staging another last minutes one of their own. I guess we could categorize that as the anatomy of what constitutes a QB choker in the alternate universe some patsfans have occupied since February of 2008...

The same enlightened fans have been attempting to out this clown once and for all since the day he stepped into a throw (that I will always recall Randy Moss alligator arming for an INC) as Bernard Pollard crawled for his knee. He can't throw the deep ball despite the fact we hardly ever have a deep ball receiver worth throwing one to. He has been known to duck phantom pass rushers and failed to escape many others he clearly should have due to playing behind a line that is highly touted based on their one dimentional play when consistently augmented by guys he could otherwise be targeting. Sure he still has his moments when he somehow manages to dicate to opponents bringing front 7's to their knees faster than the Oregon Ducks... But when his still transitioning defense craps it's pants late in games he can't seem to single handedly find a way to cover their or his coaches or his suddenly out of rhythm offenses asses. What a stiff. Why not give Steve Young...oops, I mean Ryan Mallett a shot. He is after all the future and he has a laser rocket arm and when he does just fine we can trade Brady to some QB starved team like SF where he always wanted to play for 2 firsts and a second plus Patrick Willis...

That some apparently blind homers compare this guy to a giant like Montana is comical. Like teams Joe led ever failed to advance to the ultimate goal, or went one and done in consecutive post seasons or lost to playoff games to crappy regular season teams with marginal QBs like even say the Giants or Vikings, or lost 6+ games in his 23 playoff games career... Oh, wait. He did all those things. Go figure.

How good has Spagnolo's D been since he left the Giants? Jeebus, Del Rio?? LOL And Wade would likely struggle running BELICHICK'S defense even more than Pees or Patricia have... Those guys go to teams whose HC doesn't have a scheme of his own or the capacity to teach one to others. People who have issues with the coaching or coordinating on either side of the ball here need to own up to the fact that they have issues with Bill Belichick. Not some position coach or coordinator who is essentially doing what Bill tasked him with, running his offense or defense based on the roster he assembles. Those position coaches and coordinators will reel it in or ratchet it up based on Bill's directives. Period. Same deal for the QB. Just another tennant of Belichick's it is what it is mantra.

This is just silly. Plenty of times Brady has had the ball in his hands at the end of playoff games only needing a first down to win, not even needing to score, and hasn't been able to do it. It's been frankly bizarre how often he has failed in these situations. If the Bailey pick wasn't his fault in 2005, and the failed pass to Troy Brown vs Colts in 2006 + the pick to end the game; plus the poor playoff performances of 2007, 2009 and 2010; plus the Giants SB- if none of this is ever his fault it seems to me you would never concede anything ever to be his fault which is my point in describing your perspective as delusional.

It doesn't mean Brady can't do better, but he needs to be set up for success by good coaching and balanced game plans. It is best to think of TBRady as Matt Hassellbeck circa 2003-2007 with the Seahawks, at least in big games they play similarly. He needs a good run game and solid defense to win vs top competition in pressure situations.
 
In this case provocative = epic fail.

Brady has somehow managed to lug this outfit to the playoffs even in the most difficult of circumstances over the last several seasons. 2005 featured the loss of Rodney on the heels of Law's departure, TJ's pre camp retirement on the heels of Bruschi's stroke and the beginning of the end of the one and done phenomenon known as Clock Killin Dillon. Whole team melted down around him in Denver, starting with one of those ultimate Patriots HOFers flashing back to his fumblitis days and a bunch of other guys screwing up in an attempt to regroup via overachievement. That was the game where the legend of Ben Watson was born, and like most legends it was based on misconception. Had he just picked up his blitzer he never would have had to chase down a HOF corner - for all the good that did.

2006 - aka the year Brady did it with bugeyed smoke and mirrors on offense, the end of the shortlived Branch and Givens WR tandem, the even shorter lived Dillon era and the beginning of the end of the should have been shorter Dancing Maroney era. And no Rodney down the stretch and an aging midget WR playing DB on a flu ridden aging out veteran team. And all Mr. Miracle could do is stake them to a 3 score lead heading into the half of the AFCC in a hostile road environment. Freakin' choker.

Then we come to the real problem. The cause of the evolution of one loss at a time angst. The curse of the undefeated season on the heels of a scandal that would have crippled most teams... After which no defeat was ever expected or acceptable god damnit.

Then there was 2008. The year some here came to the conclusion that a guy they predicted would be a Walmart bagger before camp ended up leading the team to an 11 win season. After Brady somehow contributed to his own demise by not being conditioned or well enough prepared to evade Bernard Pollard in the absence of his usually reliable scat backs blocking because he was serving a pot suspension... Underscored what happens when QB's hook up with supermodels and clearly lose the Fiah in the Belly... That was when it first began to become trendy to discuss trading Brady while we still could.

Only the team never considered it, much to Scott Pioli's current chagrin. Brady had to work his way back in 2009 under constant attack by those seemingly oblivious to the corpse of Randy Moss simutaneously sucking any life out of the offense. And the defense...the defense...let's not even go there. Suffice it to say there is no excuse to be delayed by a minimal rush hour snow event that is predicted 24 hours in advance, let alone on a day when the HC had challenged everyone to be early from here on out and the QB whose wife gave birth in Boston overnight had no trouble showing up on time. A defense that got flat out pancaked by the Ravens in the first round of the playoffs. Oh, did I mention that happened the week after they lost the best slot WR in the league? Once again Brady disappointed the fan base, the 4th time that had happened in 18 playoff games. Really, what a choker.


Then we were on to 2010. All Tom could manage that season was a unanimous league MVP. On a team that had jettisoned Randy Moss and replaced him with Deion Branch in week 4 of a season in which the offense was transitioning to a two rookie TE's and the defense was entering full blown transition to what would ultimately become a 4-3 base. All the choker could manage with this crew though was a 14-2 regular season and another one and done in the playoffs to the upstart JETS who put 28 points on the board in fairly rapid succession including via muffed punt and recovery of a badly executed onside kick. Every time Brady closed the cap, it subsequently almost immediately widened. He should have done something about that for sure...

Then came another offensive season for the ages as the two TE offense took flight even as the defensive transition muddled along. But alas old Tom came up short again, painfully at the hands of the same crew who had ruined his last attempt at a come from behind superbowl victory by staging another last minutes one of their own. I guess we could categorize that as the anatomy of what constitutes a QB choker in the alternate universe some patsfans have occupied since February of 2008...

The same enlightened fans have been attempting to out this clown once and for all since the day he stepped into a throw (that I will always recall Randy Moss alligator arming for an INC) as Bernard Pollard crawled for his knee. He can't throw the deep ball despite the fact we hardly ever have a deep ball receiver worth throwing one to. He has been known to duck phantom pass rushers and failed to escape many others he clearly should have due to playing behind a line that is highly touted based on their one dimentional play when consistently augmented by guys he could otherwise be targeting. Sure he still has his moments when he somehow manages to dicate to opponents bringing front 7's to their knees faster than the Oregon Ducks... But when his still transitioning defense craps it's pants late in games he can't seem to single handedly find a way to cover their or his coaches or his suddenly out of rhythm offenses asses. What a stiff. Why not give Steve Young...oops, I mean Ryan Mallett a shot. He is after all the future and he has a laser rocket arm and when he does just fine we can trade Brady to some QB starved team like SF where he always wanted to play for 2 firsts and a second plus Patrick Willis...

That some apparently blind homers compare this guy to a giant like Montana is comical. Like teams Joe led ever failed to advance to the ultimate goal, or went one and done in consecutive post seasons or lost to playoff games to crappy regular season teams with marginal QBs like even say the Giants or Vikings, or lost 6+ games in his 23 playoff games career... Oh, wait. He did all those things. Go figure.

How good has Spagnolo's D been since he left the Giants? Jeebus, Del Rio?? LOL And Wade would likely struggle running BELICHICK'S defense even more than Pees or Patricia have... Those guys go to teams whose HC doesn't have a scheme of his own or the capacity to teach one to others. People who have issues with the coaching or coordinating on either side of the ball here need to own up to the fact that they have issues with Bill Belichick. Not some position coach or coordinator who is essentially doing what Bill tasked him with, running his offense or defense based on the roster he assembles. Those position coaches and coordinators will reel it in or ratchet it up based on Bill's directives. Period. Same deal for the QB. Just another tennant of Belichick's it is what it is mantra.

It's not that hard, Mo. Really it isn't. Speaking the truth is not hard.
Repeat after me...."Brady is not the player he once was"....Brady is not the player he once was"...."Brady is not the player he once was"..........
Now isn't this easier than your silly idol worship missive??
 
In the 3 losses this year, the offense has scored a total of 1 TD in the 4th quarter.

Points scored in 4th quarter this year
6,9,3,31,0,3
Toss out the Buffalo outlier and the Pats offense is averaging 4.2 point/4th qtr

He's put the team in position to win every game.

28-10 lead going into the 4th against Tenn, Pats win 34-13

13-9 deficit going into the 4th against Arizona, outscored the Cards 9-6 in the 4th putting them in position to win with a relatively easy 42 yard field goal.

27-21 lead going into the 4th against Baltimore, Pats lose 31-30

21-21 tied up going into the 4th, outscored Buffalo 31-7 in the 4th, Pats win 52-28

31-14 lead going into the 4th, Pats win 31-21 against Denver

20-10 lead going into the 4th, Pats lose 24-23

How can anybody look at this and start with the QB has the root of the problem. The only game they went into the 4th with a defecit they should have won with a makable field goal. They were tied with Buffalo going into the final quarter and scored 31 in the 4th. They had leads of 18,6,17 and 10 going into the 4th in the other games. If they had any sembalance of a defense or sensible play calling these games would have been put away. This is not to say Brady couldn't play better. Is he to blame for the loses? No.
 
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