Today's post by NEInsider on ESPN board

[alvinnf]

There is no coverage used by any team at any level that has a corner covering with the expectation he has safety help on the deep route, but the safety deciding whether or not to give it or do something else.
We can describe every coverage ever used, and what it is , but there simply is none that does this, which is what the op stated.

Yeah, there is, it's called combo cover 3, 3 shell look, SS and FS work together to read the release of the TE or Slot reciever, the byproduct of which is a 3 to 2 man principle between defenders and two recivers. It is also concievable that in this type of coverage a corner could percieve safety help and not get any if the FS and SS miss read the TE(blown coverage). You might want to check out some of the Colt games this is the Pats D of choice against that offense. Ironically Jax uses it against them allot also, and they unsuccessfully tried with us. You need smart safeties who work well together, something we have that Jax obviously did'nt.

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

Please help me with the parking situation at the stadium. I always park in P8. I understand that is gone now and only for the shopping mall..Any suggestions?

I suggest hanging out in the middle of the parking lot, watching the cars on either side. When you see that one of them is in greater danger than the other of not reaching their parking spot fast enough, you should whip over then and take his spot.

I can't tell you how many times I've stolen Ellis Hobb's parking space using this strategy.

Hope that helps.

 

[PatsFan37]

I suggest hanging out in the middle of the parking lot, watching the cars on either side. When you see that one of them is in greater danger than the other of not reaching their parking spot fast enough, you should whip over then and take his spot.

I can't tell you how many times I've stolen Ellis Hobb's parking space using this strategy.

Hope that helps.

Yes, but only because Asante switched to the inside lane when he should have stayed outside.

 

[PatsFan37]

Yeah, there is, it's called combo cover 3, 3 shell look, SS and FS work together to read the release of the TE or Slot reciever, the byproduct of which is a 3 to 2 man principle between defenders and two recivers. It is also concievable that in this type of coverage a corner could percieve safety help and not get any if the FS and SS miss read the TE(blown coverage). You might want to check out some of the Colt games this is the Pats D of choice against that offense. Ironically Jax uses it against them allot also, and they unsuccessfully tried with us. You need smart safeties who work well together, something we have that Jax obviously did'nt.

Thanks, very nice explanation. All kidding aside about parking spaces, I've really enjoyed this thread. Now if only the TV broadcasters let us see the deep field every once in a while, when the safeties are setting up.

 

[Ring 6]

Yeah, there is, it's called combo cover 3, 3 shell look, SS and FS work together to read the release of the TE or Slot reciever, the byproduct of which is a 3 to 2 man principle between defenders and two recivers. It is also concievable that in this type of coverage a corner could percieve safety help and not get any if the FS and SS miss read the TE(blown coverage). You might want to check out some of the Colt games this is the Pats D of choice against that offense. Ironically Jax uses it against them allot also, and they unsuccessfully tried with us. You need smart safeties who work well together, something we have that Jax obviously did'nt.

NO. You cannot say there is a defense designed to do what was posted, when that is CONCEIBABLE IF A COVERAGE IS BLOWN.

Once again you do not design a defense where a corner is playing like he has deep help, and the safety chooses whether or not to give it.
Read the op. The entire post was based upon Hobbs getting blamed because the Patriot defense is designed that he is supposed to cover like he has deep help, but the safety decided whether to actually give it or not.

Describing what happens when a coverage is blown is not agreeing with the horribly misstated post.

 

[Ring 6]

Yeah, there is, it's called combo cover 3, 3 shell look, SS and FS work together to read the release of the TE or Slot reciever, the byproduct of which is a 3 to 2 man principle between defenders and two recivers. It is also concievable that in this type of coverage a corner could percieve safety help and not get any if the FS and SS miss read the TE(blown coverage). You might want to check out some of the Colt games this is the Pats D of choice against that offense. Ironically Jax uses it against them allot also, and they unsuccessfully tried with us. You need smart safeties who work well together, something we have that Jax obviously did'nt.

In this coverage, the corner is not expecting help. A corner expects help when you are in zone coverage with SOMEONE ASSIGNED TO THE DEEP ZONE BEHIND THE CORNER or are in man coverage with a double team on the corners man.

You canwrite aobut or create any kind of exotic coverage you wish, but the fact is that there is no such defense as one where the corner lines up and is assignement is to cover in a manner that exposes him to the deep ball because there is A DIFFERENT player responsible for it, and then the guy responsbile for the deep ball gets to choose it from other responsibliities. It is impossible to do that without allowing 80 points a game.

 

[alvinnf]

Thanks, very nice explanation. All kidding aside about parking spaces, I've really enjoyed this thread. Now if only the TV broadcasters let us see the deep field every once in a while, when the safeties are setting up.

Yeah, I too am tired of looking QB's head until he snaps the ball, but the real question is how do I become a VIP member.

 

[alvinnf]

In this coverage, the corner is not expecting help. A corner expects help when you are in zone coverage with SOMEONE ASSIGNED TO THE DEEP ZONE BEHIND THE CORNER or are in man coverage with a double team on the corners man.

You canwrite aobut or create any kind of exotic coverage you wish, but the fact is that there is no such defense as one where the corner lines up and is assignement is to cover in a manner that exposes him to the deep ball because there is A DIFFERENT player responsible for it, and then the guy responsbile for the deep ball gets to choose it from other responsibliities. It is impossible to do that without allowing 80 points a game.

You obviously don't get it.... They are in a 3 deep look 2 of the three are corners, it could be a 3 deep combo zone or 3 deep man or whatever they draw up. In order to fool the offense and disguise the coverage the three deep don't share the same depth. If they are combo man in a 2x1 set TE to the slot, the outside corner could recieve safety help from the free safety if the TE does'nt commit to a vertical route, therefore the FS would be available to provide deep ball protection. Conversely the offense could try to influence the FS by running a deep in with the TE or the slot, that's if they knew they were in three deep, and that's also why the depth is important and why it is possible for the FS to prove support to the corner. See touchdown catch in Colts/Pats 06 after Rodney gets hurt, when Gay is playing Safety.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Bill varies his Defense dependent on the talent than he has on the squad.

When he had good interceptors who were somewhat slow, he rotated the Defense so the interceptor, OTIS or Samuel could jump the route. He knew that he could gamble, knowing he had deep backup to recover if he missed and no TD would result. When he had no such talent, he played straight-up, bend but don't break and trusted that the opposition would make a mistake and kill an opposition drive.

He played more a mixture of man and zone.

 

[alvinnf]

Perfectly said, thank you for leaving out, the paralasis through analysis...

He played more a mixture of man and zone.[/QUOTE]

 

[Lloyd_Christmas]

Yeah, I too am tired of looking QB's head until he snaps the ball, but the real question is how do I become a VIP member.

Why, that is quite easy:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=83929

For a mere $1.50/month, you can become a VIP member too!

For only $1.50 you can get access to the exclusive VIP lounge, Arcade, and other cool features reserved only for VIP members. Or you can buy a cup of coffee or feed a starving kid in Africa. All good deals.

 

[Bill 4 Prez]

AndyJohnson: The point is very simply this.
WE DO NOT RUN A DEFENSE where a corner is told he has deep help and a safety can decide whether to give deep help or not.
Either it is the SAFETYS JOB to play over top of that corner, or it is not. Under no circumstances would a corner think he has deep help but a safety think its up to him to give it or go somewhere else



I agree with that, but what he said was very basic and simple and may have confused some people. What he said is true to an extent, obviously it is much more complex and every man has certain assignments. BUT in certain zone coverages the Pats do trust the over the top Safety to play center field, I think thats all he was trying to say. Of course both corners know they only have one safety to help them both.

 

[Ring 6]

You obviously don't get it.... They are in a 3 deep look 2 of the three are corners, it could be a 3 deep combo zone or 3 deep man or whatever they draw up. In order to fool the offense and disguise the coverage the three deep don't share the same depth. If they are combo man in a 2x1 set TE to the slot, the outside corner could recieve safety help from the free safety if the TE does'nt commit to a vertical route, therefore the FS would be available to provide deep ball protection. Conversely the offense could try to influence the FS by running a deep in with the TE or the slot, that's if they knew they were in three deep, and that's also why the depth is important and why it is possible for the FS to prove support to the corner. See touchdown catch in Colts/Pats 06 after Rodney gets hurt, when Gay is playing Safety.

No you dont get it.
Nothing you describe says what was in the oringinal post.
The original post held Hobbs blameless for being beaten because he was playing as he was supposed to because he had deep help, but the deep help is't really deep help, because it may run the other way.
You can describe anything you want but it still does not create a system where you tell your corner to cover the guy ignoring the deep ball (the only reason for the corner to think he has deep help is to play more aggressively and not worry about getting beaten deep) and do not have a player DEDICATED ONLY TO BEING THAT DEEP HELP.

 

[Ring 6]

AndyJohnson: The point is very simply this.
WE DO NOT RUN A DEFENSE where a corner is told he has deep help and a safety can decide whether to give deep help or not.
Either it is the SAFETYS JOB to play over top of that corner, or it is not. Under no circumstances would a corner think he has deep help but a safety think its up to him to give it or go somewhere else



I agree with that, but what he said was very basic and simple and may have confused some people. What he said is true to an extent, obviously it is much more complex and every man has certain assignments. BUT in certain zone coverages the Pats do trust the over the top Safety to play center field, I think thats all he was trying to say. Of course both corners know they only have one safety to help them both.

This is what he said(my comments in CAPS)

If the corner that was to receive deep help is in good position and the other corner appears to have either jumped a route or been duped into thinking he has picked up a key and changed coverage but left himself open to a deep route the FS must play the percentages and move to help the corner in trouble. This is why the FS is generally positioned in the center of the field and deep.
A CORNER WHO IS 'TO RECEIVE HELP' IS COVERING BASED ON THAT HELP. FURTHER IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A SAFETY TO WAIT AND SEE HOW CORNERS ARE COVERING TO DECIDE WHO TO GIVE HELP TO, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE HAS BEEN ASSIGNED TO HELP ONE SIDE. FINALLY, THE ENTIRE PREMISE IS THAT THE OTHER CORNER HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE IS DOING AND ACTS RANDOMLY SO WE NEED TO DEDICATE A SAFETY TO COVER FOR A PLAYER NOT KNOWING HIS ASSIGNMENT.



Hobbs many times was doing his job perfectly with deep help assigned but lost his deep help when the other corner gambled and broke coverage or the defensive scheme called was not followed by the other corner. This resulted in Hobbs being one on one when he should not have been and being beaten deep when he should have had deep help.
ITS RIDICULOUS TO SAY THAT THE OTHER CORNER MANY TIMES SCREWS UP HIS ASSIGNMENT, AND EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS TO SAY THAT BBS DEFENSIVE SYSTEM ASSIGNS A SAFETY TO GO COVER FOR THE GUY WHO DECIDES NOT TO PLAY WHATS CALLED. WE DONT PLAY 10 MEN ON D AND HAVE THE 11TH RUN AROUND LOOKING FOR WHO DIDNT WANT TO DO THEIR JOB. IF THE ABOVE WERE TRUE THAT OTHER CORNER WOULD BE ON THE BENCH, BB WOULDN'T DEDICATE A PLAYER TO COVERING FOR THEGUY WE ALLOWED TO PLAY HIS OWN DEFENSE.
THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST LUDICROUS COMMENTS EVER MADE ON THIS BOARD.




If a corner has deep help he plays inside the receiver forcing the QB to put air under the ball and allow the deep help to move into position and either break up the play or intercept it. If a corner plays inside the receiver when he has no deep help he forces the FS to decide who needs the help the most. Guessing is never good.
AGAIN, SAFETIES ARE NOT OUT THERE TO WATCH WHAT THE CORNERS DO, AND THEN DECIDE WHICH ONE TO GO HELP. PLAYS HAPPEN TOO FAST. BY THE TIME A SAFETY WATCHED HOW COVERAGE WAS GOING (TYPICALLY OUR CORNERS ARE 5-7 YARDS OFF AND BACKPEDALLING) BEFORE CHOOSING WHAT TO DO, HE WOULD NEVER, EVER GET THERE IN TIME. ON TOP OF THAT, HE IS DESCRIBING WHAT A CORNER WITH DEEP HELP DOES. YOU CANT HAVE A CORNER PLAY AS IF HE HAS DEEP HELP, THEN BE ARBITRARY IN GIVING IT.

I WOULD ACCEPT POTENTIAL VALIDITY TO THIS IF IT SAID THAT OUR CORNERS HAVE IT TOUGHER BECAUSE THEY NEVER ARE ASSURED OF HELP AND HAVE TO PLAY AS IF THEY WILL GET NONE....ITS NOT TRUE IN OUR SYSTEM, BUT ITS AT LEAST POSSIBLE. TO SAY A CORNER IS INSTRUCTED TO PLAY AS IF THERE IS DEEP HELP, THEN NOT ASSURE HIM OF IT, IS JUST PLAIN STUPID FOOTBALL, AND WE DO NOT PRACTICE THAT VERSION OF FOOTBALL HERE.

 

[Ring 6]

AndyJohnson: The point is very simply this.
WE DO NOT RUN A DEFENSE where a corner is told he has deep help and a safety can decide whether to give deep help or not.
Either it is the SAFETYS JOB to play over top of that corner, or it is not. Under no circumstances would a corner think he has deep help but a safety think its up to him to give it or go somewhere else



I agree with that, but what he said was very basic and simple and may have confused some people. What he said is true to an extent, obviously it is much more complex and every man has certain assignments. BUT in certain zone coverages the Pats do trust the over the top Safety to play center field, I think thats all he was trying to say. Of course both corners know they only have one safety to help them both.

What you just typed is entirely different than what he said.
The sum total of what he said is Hobbs is better than he looks becuase the poor guy is playing a defense where he has deep help, but conistently the other corner doesn't play the defense that was called so the safety's job is to watch for that and run to the other side of the field, leaving Hobbs in front of the reciever like he is supposed to be, but the defense failed, not Hobbs, because the guy who was supposed to be covering ran the other way, because instead of being deep help, he is supposed to pick and choose where he goes by what he sees. ITs even more bizarre because anyone who has ever played the game knows that if you put a safety in the middle of the field, and tell him to assess which corner is in better postion to cover his WR before choosing which way to go there is no way in the world he could ever get to either side in time to be anywhere near the recevier.
Think about it. How long does it take for the safety to look at BOTH sidelines, and make a judgment on how well coverage is going? How far down the field is the WR? If it is a go route, he has to be 15 yards downfield, running full speed before you could even make that chioce. If a safety is standing in the middle of the field, it is physically impossible for him to have any impact on that route. The description offered by the op makes deep help impossible and defeats the purpose of a safety.

 

[TripleOption]

There is no coverage used by any team at any level that has a corner covering with the expectation he has safety help on the deep route, but the safety deciding whether or not to give it or do something else.
We can describe every coverage ever used, and what it is , but there simply is none that does this, which is what the op stated.

Goddamn it, for the last time, it is called Cover One. The FS has the freedom to decide what part of the field he covers. If the CB gambles and blows it but the FS has misread the QB, it's six points. I've been coaching DB's for 5 years and it is run at EVERY level.

 

[TripleOption]

AGAIN, SAFETIES ARE NOT OUT THERE TO WATCH WHAT THE CORNERS DO, AND THEN DECIDE WHICH ONE TO GO HELP.

Good lord.

How many years did you play DB? How many years have you coached it? Are you a DC anywhere?

Please stop it.

 

[alvinnf]

Good lord.

How many years did you play DB? How many years have you coached it? Are you a DC anywhere?

Please stop it.

It only hurts when I laugh.....

 

[arrellbee]

Andy, there is one serious problem with what you are claiming.

We have all seen MANY receptions where the CB is playing underneath and either there is no over the top safety help or it gets there several steps too late.

For what you are saying to have substance, the corner has to blow a LOT of assignments by playing underneath when he is supposed to be playing man coverage. I simply cannot believe that a CB is allowed to play by Belichick who make that mistake that many times.

Or for what you are saying, the safety has unconditional over the top coverage but somehow or another he completely blows his assignment or for some inexplicable reason hesitates to execute his assignment. Again, you can't possibly convince me that Belichick has a safety out there that makes that many mistakes.

So there is only one possible explanation for why the over the top coverage is either not there or is seriously late - and that has to be that the safety is making a decision to leave the corner on his own even though it is obvious that the corner is assigned to play underneath - or the safety is being delayed by the time it takes him to read whatever defensive keys he is required to do by his assignment from the coaches and by the time he has made his read, it is too late to get there.

I have no interest in trying to parse the words of the original post - but there are some folks here who might just have the credentials to comment on what assignments and responsibilities safeties have - and I'll stand by my observations above.

 

[Bill 4 Prez]

What you just typed is entirely different than what he said.
The sum total of what he said is Hobbs is better than he looks becuase the poor guy is playing a defense where he has deep help, but conistently the other corner doesn't play the defense that was called so the safety's job is to watch for that and run to the other side of the field, leaving Hobbs in front of the reciever like he is supposed to be, but the defense failed, not Hobbs, because the guy who was supposed to be covering ran the other way, because instead of being deep help, he is supposed to pick and choose where he goes by what he sees. ITs even more bizarre because anyone who has ever played the game knows that if you put a safety in the middle of the field, and tell him to assess which corner is in better postion to cover his WR before choosing which way to go there is no way in the world he could ever get to either side in time to be anywhere near the recevier.
Think about it. How long does it take for the safety to look at BOTH sidelines, and make a judgment on how well coverage is going? How far down the field is the WR? If it is a go route, he has to be 15 yards downfield, running full speed before you could even make that chioce. If a safety is standing in the middle of the field, it is physically impossible for him to have any impact on that route. The description offered by the op makes deep help impossible and defeats the purpose of a safety.

I disagree playing centerfield as a safety is all about be able to go from sideline to sideline and make plays. I don't know why he is describing the defense like this, but its seems to be in layman's terms. The safety doesn't just guess he looks for posts, slants, outs, etc. and he is assigned to help on certain routes.