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To those of you who believe times have changed

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Nov 28, 2007.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Some of the righties here think America is fundamentally different than it was bfore. They think the problems we face are new. They think our elections are worse, that the battle between conservatives and liberals are at some sort of peak, that the battle between religion and science is new, that the political divisions are like we've never seen before. They have not read history. This book review will give them some insight into our glorious history and maybe help them realize the problems we face today are not greater or less than the ones we faced in the past.

    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/li...gative_ads_behind_scenes_trickselection_1800/
  2. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    well, when you consider that unnecessary global nuclear conflict is looming on the horizon largely because of the actions of our current leadership, i would say the problems we face today most certainly ARE greater than those of the past...
  3. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    What is different is the level of despair and bitterness, at least in my lifetime. You don't get a sense of what the average person was thinking in the past from history books. I wonder if the despair and bitterness is self-fulfilling?
  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with you Patters. It is possible that the pervasive media we deal with tends to amplify things. OTOH there are so many distractions (other media) beyond politics know this may offset the increase in the amount of media, in terms of the impact on peoples awareness of politics.
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It also has fostered deeper divisions than previous, with the advent of the internet and discussion boards & blogs... there is a lot of unsubstantiated information out there that lemmings from both sides of the aisle blindly follow.
  6. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    As usual you either can't grasp what people's concerns are, or you can, but deliberately play dumb. People don't think yesteryear was Eden'esque. We simply feel that the current path that our country is on, is of grave concern. With $9 Trillion in national debt, 20+ million ILLEGALS inside our borders, wars being faught on two fronts, entitilements crippling our budget, millionaire out of touch politicians filling up our executive and legislative branch, the welfare state growing at an unsustainable rate, the cost of living exploding, the police state tightening it's grip, families discintigrating, kids growing up out of wedlock, and the morallity of society non-existent, please don't try to tell us that today's problems are no different than 50, 100, or 200 years ago. Look at this group of frauds running for office as proof positive of how far we've fallen.

    Hillary Clinton, Rudy Giuliani, Thomas Jefferson....:rolleyes:
  7. STFarmy

    STFarmy Rookie

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    Regarding political polarization, a fun read is "Affairs of Honor" by Joanne B. Freeman. It explores the honor culture and the viscious political battles that some of the early politicians of our country had. Ideas and beliefs are powerful things indeed, and they can drive people to irrational or hostile actions towards those who don't share the same ones.
  8. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    I cannot figure out what this thread is supposed to be about.


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  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I wish you had read the arrticle, since you're missing the point. Take just this paragraph:

    "Democratic Republicans responded by damning their opponents as paranoid monarchists willing to sacrifice American liberties, including freedom of speech and religion, to imaginary threats - and their own political ambitions. An undeclared war on France, the suppression of opposition journalists, a law aimed at illegal aliens, and Jefferson's reputation as a man of science allowed the election of 1800 to also serve as a referendum on a range of issues, from to civil rights to foreign relations. In August 1800, a foiled slave rebellion in Jefferson's own Virginia built on, and in turn reinforced, the sense that a glorious or tragic change might occur in November."

    RW, the issues are the same and of equally dramatic importance relative to their times. Our problems are different today of course, but no more dramatic except for the, to paraphrase the article, the paranoid righties willing to sacrifice American liberties.
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Our country and our issues are no more dramatic today than they were 200 years ago. These times we are in are not as special as people think. I disagree with the doom and gloom righties (who are terrified of immigration, the deficit, terrorists, moral climate, etc.) and think the United States is collapsing. We have problems back then that parallel the ones we're having today, and we'll find our way forward.
  11. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Oh, I see what you are saying.

    I disagree with you. :D

    Today is a watershed turning point, not only for America, but for the entire human race. If we do not get our act together on the most fundamental values we hold dear, we are in for the mother of all sh!t-storms.

    But I do believe we are going to right the ship of humankind, though not without a lot of self-sacrifice. But that, too, is a joyful thing. So, let's just do it!




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  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are many in each generation who want to believe that their generation is the watershed generation, the greatest generation, what have you. I think that is nothing but an ego trip. I would love to be living in the height of a moment of history, but in many ways these are fairly quiet times -- no world wars, no reformations, to fundamental population shifts, no plagues on the scale of those that existed centuries ago, etc.

    We do need to right the ship of humankind, but each generation contributes a little bit to that. Today, people live longer, have greater rights, are less often killed through conflict, generally have enough to subsist on, and in most places have at least some of their rights protected. Are we where we should be? Not by a long shot. A few countries, and I'd include the US in that list, have made tremendous strides, but even among those there are still major moral issues we're grappling with and probably will be grappling with for 100s if not 1000s of years.
  13. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    You're beyond dillusional. There was no welfare state back then. We weren't a world superpower. Entitlements were non existent . There was no income tax in 1800. Abortions, violent crime, drugs, children born out of wedlock, debt, predatory lending, pollution, over regulation, corporate greed, identity theft, terrorism, etc... Every era has its problems, but on our current path we're headed for implosion.
  14. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Please explain to us the similarities, and why we shouldn't be concerned.
  15. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    I don't think "every generation" believes they are a watershed generation. Certainly there's a certain amount of youthful bluster and sense of "invincibility" that most generations go through, but as far as being truly historic, I believe most of us born after WWII have had a sense of being born into a new era, one unlike any that has ever occurred before. Surely, the fact that the world became so much "smaller" during this age, via telecommunications and air travel and the like, has proven that fast travel and instantaneous communications make us all closer together than we had ever in history imagined.

    I'm not talking about the small incremental improvements that have always been occurring in humankind, from the cave dwellers to the space station jockeys. Those are external physical developments. I'm talking about deep inner revival in the spirit of men and women to find their right and proper place in the cosmos. Ever since Jesus said we are all children of God, the Father and Creator of heaven and earth, we have been bound to find out just *how* we will be able to live up to our lofty position as "sons and daughters of God." To do that, first of all, we need to know who God is and why He created us, and what portion of the responsibility to become truly the sons and daughters of God is ours.

    It's not going to keep inching forward from now; the dam has broken and it is going to happen very quickly, over the next 20 to 40 years. Great strides and very positive changes are on their way. It's already started, and soon more and more will see it.


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  16. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    expand a bit on that last paragraph, if you would... what "it" specifically is going to happen?
  17. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Read the article. The similarities are obvious (religion v. science, immigration, role of government, etc.). I didn't say we shouldn't be concerned, but you, especially, I think often blow our problems out of proportion. My only point is that whatever problems we face today are no worse than problems we have faced in the past. In 1800s, there were RWs who thought immigration was gong to destroy our culture. The same is true in the 1900s. They were wrong, and I think the RWs of today will be wrong as well. I have faith in our nation's ability to overcome it's problems in a variety of different ways, some more liberal, some more conservative. Historically, both approaches with a dose of moderation seem to work fairly well.
  18. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    We need to see things from a global perspective from now on, not from just a U.S. perspective. The world as a whole is poised for total equilibrium. Everybody, from Africa to Asia to South America, and everywhere in-between is ready to become full and equal partners in the world community. The only question is: upon what standard can we all become one world?

    The most fundamental thing we all share in common is our desire for happiness, peace, and mutual co-prosperity. To get that, however, requires thinking outside the boxes we have been given from generation to generation. We need a totally fresh start, based on truth that is eternal, unchanging, and absolute. And the most basic truth of all is: we all want and need true love. So the world culture from now will be based absolutely on true love. Anything less will be rejected as "been there, done that, doesn't work". The model of true love, however, has never been fulfilled until now, and is therefore the only reasonable choice we have. Which is good!!


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  19. BbRrUeSwCsHkIe

    BbRrUeSwCsHkIe Rookie

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    If that statement wasn't so delusional it would sound brilliant.

    To a certain extent the OP is correct, but only because the ten commandments continue to remain applicable through every phase of the planet since the spoken word. The weren't written in the hopes that some day humanity would vote to reduce them because they became obsolete. They will be timeless as long as Man exists. And they will be broken until the end.
  20. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks for not answering the question. I want specifics, and not some ra-ra BS speech that answers nothing. You sound like Deval Patrick. Together we can. Wow, so there were negative campaigns back then, and people thought some things about life sucked. Holy moly, yeah, that's exactly the same as the problems we face today. Great, I won't worry anymore, cuz everything will be rosie. :rolleyes:

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