To clinch the #2 overall pick

[Trot]

I know, I know, because BB and Pioli NEVER make mistakes. I wonder if Denver fans are still giving Mike Shanahan a FREE RIDE because he won two super bowls for them.

Is there something about post #37 that you didn't understand, Troll?

 

[scout]

Lets recap;
The New England Patriots are 11-0
They are currently slated to secure the #2 pick in the draft.
They are the odds on favorites to win their 4th Super Bowl of this decade.
Many analysts, former players, coaches perceive them as the best ever.
Pioli and BB suck.

 

[National Sports Advisors]

it is of course valid to bring up concerns, which lots of people here won't want to hear b/c it interrupts their pom pom waving.

just b/c we're 11-0 doesn't mean that every decision made is 100% correct.

but on balance, the decisions made by Piolichek have been better than everybody else over the last 6 or 7 years. that DOESN'T mean they are the best every single year, but it is sustained greatness that really matters.

I agree. I wouldn't want anyone else as the coach and GM of this team. No question. However, we did not win the super bowl the last two seasons and one could make a valid argument that the front office moves(or lack thereof) cost us the super bowl last season. This season is off to a great start and I expect us to cap it off with the big prize, but I am concerned if we ever need a running game down the stretch and about the depth in our secondary if Samuel, Hobbs, or Harrison go down. The fact that we drafted Jackson at WR last year with the intent of him helping to fill the void of Branch and Givens , Maroney at RB with the intent of him taking over for Dillon after last season, and we drafted Meriweather with the intent of him giving us the type of depth and versatility to offset a loss to a key cog in the secondary like Harrison, scares me. Anyone who does NOT believe we drafted these 3 players with the idea that they would give us production by week #12 of 2007 is kidding themselves. Hey, even Michael Jordan fell off later in his career. Let's just hope that Pioli hit a little slump and will bounce back big time with the upcoming draft. Another draft like the last 2 years and we will start to see this machine fall apart slowly but surely.

 

[makewayhomer]

Let's just hope that Pioli hit a little slump and will bounce back big time with the upcoming draft.

but it's too early to give complete grades.

would it be ideal if Merriweather was the 2nd coming of Ed Reed? Of course. but the fact that he isn't now doesn't mean he won't turn out to be a great pick when you go back and look at 5 years of results

 

[BradyFTW!]

To this point, the last 2 years of picks are disappointing. In a couple of years, they may very well seem like great picks. Nobody (Not even NSA) is saying that these were awful drafts; simply that they havent met expectations up to this point, and hopefully they will start to in the future. What's so bad about saying that? That doesn't mean that Pioli sucks, it just means that he isn't perfect.

 

[Deus Irae]

To this point, the last 2 years of picks are disappointing. In a couple of years, they may very well seem like great picks. Nobody (Not even NSA) is saying that these were awful drafts; simply that they havent met expectations up to this point, and hopefully they will start to in the future. What's so bad about saying that? That doesn't mean that Pioli sucks, it just means that he isn't perfect.

1.) This thread is not about the last 2 years of draft picks.

2.) Of the Patriots last 2 years of draft picks, 18 of 19 players drafted are either on an NFL roster or practice squad. Feel free to prove how every other team in the league has done as well or better.

 

[primetime]

On the Graham point (who, by the way, was drafted 21st, not 18th, in that round), let's take a look at who was drafted in round 1 that year. Better picks than Graham in green, worse picks in red, similar picks in blue.

1) David Carr - QB, Texans - Did nothing, now backing up a man older than God in Carolina.
2) Julius Peppers - DE, Panthers - One of the best defensive players in the NFL
3) Joey Harrington - QB, Lions - Starting for his third team in three years
4) Mike Williams - OT, Bills - Fat, overpaid offensive lineman that never cut it
5) Quentin Jammer - CB, Chargers - Never lived up to expectations, forcing SD to draft another 1st round CB four years later
6) Ryan Sims - DT, Chiefs - Traded to the Bucs last year for a late round conditional draft pick
7) Bryant McKinnie - OT, Vikings - After a holdout, only performance worthy of note was on the Love Boat
8) Roy Williams - S, Cowboys - Overhyped safety who can't cover my grandmother, still has made it to a couple Pro Bowls
9) John Henderson - DT, Jaguars - Huge presence in the middle of the Jacksonville defensive line
10) Levi Jones - OT, Bengals - Stalwart left tackle protecting Carson Palmer's blindside
11) Dwight Freeney - DE, Colts - Excellent pass rushing defensive lineman, Colts defense wouldn't be/isn't the same without him
12) Wendell Bryant - DT, Cardinals - Out of football as of 2004
13) Donte Stallworth - WR, Saints - After a few unproductive seasons in New Orleans, has had a renaissance for the Eagles and Pats
14) Jeremy Shockey - TE, Giants - Can't block, but is an extremely hardnosed football player
15) Albert Haynesworth - DT, Titans - Stomping incident aside, is the presence that the entire Titans defense relies on
16) William Green - RB, Browns - Off-field problems derailed a potentially promising career
17) Phillip Buchanon - CB, Raiders - Looked promising his first couple years, then disappeared and was dealt to Houston
18) TJ Duckett - RB, Falcons - Big bruising back never unseated Warrick Dunn in Atlanta
19) Ashley Lelie - WR, Broncos - 1000 yards and 7 TDs on 54 catches in 2004, unremarkable otherwise
20) Javon Walker - WR, Packers - Emerged as a go-to guy in Green Bay, then was dealt to Denver; injury-ridden
21) Daniel Graham - TE, Patriots - Better blocker than most offensive linemen, also flashed Shockey-like receiving skills when given the chance
22) Bryan Thomas - DE, Jets - Workout warrior was moved to OLB in the 3-4 in 2006 and posted 8.5 sacks, but pedestrian otherwise
23) Napoleon Harris - LB, Raiders - Flashed ability with the Raiders, then was dealt to Minnesota; barely adequate
24) Ed Reed - S, Ravens - Best defensive player (if not player, period) in football today
25) Charles Grant - DE, Saints - Very consistent but unspectacular, has appeared in every Saints game since being drafted
26) Lito Sheppard - CB, Eagles - One of the top 5 corners in the league, has shutdown ability
27) Mike Rumph - CB, 49ers - Bust who is currently out of football
28) Jerramy Stevens - TE, Seahawks - Most notable achievement was dropping three passes in Super Bowl XL
29) Marc Colombo - OT, Bears - Has emerged as a passable starting tackle for the Bears after years of being a disappointing backup
30) Kendall Simmons - OG, Steelers - Above average, has started at guard for the Steelers since he was drafted
31) Robert Thomas - LB, Rams - Currently with his third team, has never shown starting ability
32) Patrick Ramsey - QB, Redskins - Appeared to have potential, but was eventually replaced and released


Alot of red there. Not alot of guys who were better than Graham who were available when he was. Yes, they missed out on Ed Reed, unfortunately. But so did alot of teams. The only players in the 2nd round who I'd consider better than or equal to Graham are DeShaun Foster, Andre Gurode, LeCharles Bentley, Clinton Portis, Sheldon Brown, and Deion Branch.

 

[National Sports Advisors]

On the Graham point (who, by the way, was drafted 21st, not 18th, in that round), let's take a look at who was drafted in round 1 that year. Better picks than Graham in green, worse picks in red, similar picks in blue.

1) David Carr - QB, Texans - Did nothing, now backing up a man older than God in Carolina.
2) Julius Peppers - DE, Panthers - One of the best defensive players in the NFL
3) Joey Harrington - QB, Lions - Starting for his third team in three years
4) Mike Williams - OT, Bills - Fat, overpaid offensive lineman that never cut it
5) Quentin Jammer - CB, Chargers - Never lived up to expectations, forcing SD to draft another 1st round CB four years later
6) Ryan Sims - DT, Chiefs - Traded to the Bucs last year for a late round conditional draft pick
7) Bryant McKinnie - OT, Vikings - After a holdout, only performance worthy of note was on the Love Boat
8) Roy Williams - S, Cowboys - Overhyped safety who can't cover my grandmother, still has made it to a couple Pro Bowls
9) John Henderson - DT, Jaguars - Huge presence in the middle of the Jacksonville defensive line
10) Levi Jones - OT, Bengals - Stalwart left tackle protecting Carson Palmer's blindside
11) Dwight Freeney - DE, Colts - Excellent pass rushing defensive lineman, Colts defense wouldn't be/isn't the same without him
12) Wendell Bryant - DT, Cardinals - Out of football as of 2004
13) Donte Stallworth - WR, Saints - After a few unproductive seasons in New Orleans, has had a renaissance for the Eagles and Pats
14) Jeremy Shockey - TE, Giants - Can't block, but is an extremely hardnosed football player
15) Albert Haynesworth - DT, Titans - Stomping incident aside, is the presence that the entire Titans defense relies on
16) William Green - RB, Browns - Off-field problems derailed a potentially promising career
17) Phillip Buchanon - CB, Raiders - Looked promising his first couple years, then disappeared and was dealt to Houston
18) TJ Duckett - RB, Falcons - Big bruising back never unseated Warrick Dunn in Atlanta
19) Ashley Lelie - WR, Broncos - 1000 yards and 7 TDs on 54 catches in 2004, unremarkable otherwise
20) Javon Walker - WR, Packers - Emerged as a go-to guy in Green Bay, then was dealt to Denver; injury-ridden
21) Daniel Graham - TE, Patriots - Better blocker than most offensive linemen, also flashed Shockey-like receiving skills when given the chance
22) Bryan Thomas - DE, Jets - Workout warrior was moved to OLB in the 3-4 in 2006 and posted 8.5 sacks, but pedestrian otherwise
23) Napoleon Harris - LB, Raiders - Flashed ability with the Raiders, then was dealt to Minnesota; barely adequate
24) Ed Reed - S, Ravens - Best defensive player (if not player, period) in football today
25) Charles Grant - DE, Saints - Very consistent but unspectacular, has appeared in every Saints game since being drafted
26) Lito Sheppard - CB, Eagles - One of the top 5 corners in the league, has shutdown ability
27) Mike Rumph - CB, 49ers - Bust who is currently out of football
28) Jerramy Stevens - TE, Seahawks - Most notable achievement was dropping three passes in Super Bowl XL
29) Marc Colombo - OT, Bears - Has emerged as a passable starting tackle for the Bears after years of being a disappointing backup
30) Kendall Simmons - OG, Steelers - Above average, has started at guard for the Steelers since he was drafted
31) Robert Thomas - LB, Rams - Currently with his third team, has never shown starting ability
32) Patrick Ramsey - QB, Redskins - Appeared to have potential, but was eventually replaced and released


Alot of red there. Not alot of guys who were better than Graham who were available when he was. Yes, they missed out on Ed Reed, unfortunately. But so did alot of teams.

It's Pioli's job to find the BEST player at the pick. Ed Reed was clearly that guys. If there is noone else that is worthy of the #21 pick, than you try to trade down. You don't just draft a guy at #21 if he is not 1st Rd material. I'm not saying Daniel Graham was a bad player or awful pick. It was an OK pick, but I found it to be a reach. Knowing now that Ed Reed was available doesn't exactlly make me feel any better.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's Pioli's job to find the BEST player at the pick. Ed Reed was clearly that guys. If there is noone else that is worthy of the #21 pick, than you try to trade down. You don't just draft a guy at #21 if he is not 1st Rd material. I'm not saying Daniel Graham was a bad player or awful pick. It was an OK pick, but I found it to be a reach. Knowing now that Ed Reed was available doesn't exactlly make me feel any better.

Actually, you show your ignorance once again. It's not Pioli's job to find the BEST player at the pick. Now stop trying to hijack the thread.

 

[primetime]

It's Pioli's job to find the BEST player at the pick. Ed Reed was clearly that guys. If there is noone else that is worthy of the #21 pick, than you try to trade down. You don't just draft a guy at #21 if he is not 1st Rd material. I'm not saying Daniel Graham was a bad player or awful pick. It was an OK pick, but I found it to be a reach. Knowing now that Ed Reed was available doesn't exactlly make me feel any better.

So were Mike Rumph and Robert Thomas. So was Jabar Gaffney, the 33rd pick of that draft (1st in the 2nd round). And Reche Caldwell, the 48th.

The Patriots won 2 Super Bowls with Graham at tight end. I don't see how you can think that was a terrible pick when there were maybe only 12 players with the same kind of impact he had in the top 64 chosen (I discount Deion Branch because the Patriots selected him).

23 other teams passed on Ed Reed, too. Don't you think the Texans would've been much happier with him, in hindsight, than the QB from Fresno State?

You're just a ridiculous troll.

 

[National Sports Advisors]

So were Mike Rumph and Robert Thomas. So was Jabar Gaffney, the 33rd pick of that draft (1st in the 2nd round). And Reche Caldwell, the 48th.

The Patriots won 2 Super Bowls with Graham at tight end. I don't see how you can think that was a terrible pick when there were maybe only 12 players with the same kind of impact he had in the top 64 chosen (I discount Deion Branch because the Patriots selected him).

23 other teams passed on Ed Reed, too. Don't you think the Texans would've been much happier with him, in hindsight, than the QB from Fresno State?

You're just a ridiculous troll.

Again, I'm not bashing the Graham pick. It was a reach, in my opinion, but not a bad pick. Ed Reed clearly would have been better. However, I understand you can't be right 100% of the time. Having said all that, the drafting of Maroney over Addai was clearly WRONG and inexcusable. It is clear to anyone with a pulse that Addai is heads and shoulders above LoMo in every facet of the game and the Patriots scouting department(led by Pioli) clearly made a boo bo in drafting Maroney over Addai. Again, LoMo, Chad Jackson, and the "Hit Stick" are the three 1st and 2nd rd picks we have had the past two years. We are getting NOTHING from any of them, unless you get all warm and fuzzy over LoMo's 4.4 YPC stat. That, my friends, is cause for concern.

 

[Trot]

It's Pioli's job to find the BEST player at the pick. Ed Reed was clearly that guys. If there is noone else that is worthy of the #21 pick, than you try to trade down. You don't just draft a guy at #21 if he is not 1st Rd material. I'm not saying Daniel Graham was a bad player or awful pick. It was an OK pick, but I found it to be a reach. Knowing now that Ed Reed was available doesn't exactlly make me feel any better.

 

[Ishdul]

It's Pioli's job to find the BEST player at the pick. Ed Reed was clearly that guys. If there is noone else that is worthy of the #21 pick, than you try to trade down. You don't just draft a guy at #21 if he is not 1st Rd material. I'm not saying Daniel Graham was a bad player or awful pick. It was an OK pick, but I found it to be a reach. Knowing now that Ed Reed was available doesn't exactlly make me feel any better.

Daniel Graham was a solid pick, he was a contributer for many years before he was a FA and he was good enough to get 5 year, $30 million contract from the Broncos with $15 million of that being guaranteed. He clearly wasn't a reach because many predicted he was a consensus first rounder heading into the draft and Seattle was preparing to select him before we moved up. Yeah, Ed Reed would've been better, but you have some ridiculous standards if you expect him to always pick the best player available like he can see into the future. That would make him the best person at his job in the history of the world.

You might as well criticize the Deion Branch pick because we could've had Brian Westbrook.

 

[National Sports Advisors]

Daniel Graham was a solid pick, he was a contributer for many years before he was a FA and he was good enough to get 5 year, $30 million contract from the Broncos with $15 million of that being guaranteed. He clearly wasn't a reach because many predicted he was a consensus first rounder heading into the draft and Seattle was preparing to select him before we moved up. Yeah, Ed Reed would've been better, but you have some ridiculous standards if you expect him to always pick the best player available like he can see into the future. That would make him the best person at his job in the history of the world.

You might as well criticize the Deion Branch pick because we could've had Brian Westbrook.

Hey, I calls em like I see em. So it's not good enough for me to say Pioli is the BEST GM in the NFL, I also have to AGREE with every move that he makes? Puhleaze. Should Red Sox fans give Theo Epstein a "pass" on the horrendous JD Drew signing just because they won the world series? Should Bill Gates stop making money because he is already the richest person in the world? Good grief. All I'm looking for Pioli to do is to get a little better at drafting. I think it's reasonable to say that there is room for improvement. I know it's not the language that the homers want to hear, but you can't have EVERYTHING in life. I wanted a STUD running back last year with the #21 pick in the draft and I did not get it! LOL!

 

[spacecrime]

That would make a nice pick for your Pats. The only downside is that means big money.

Not if you trade down. Get someone else's first this year and first next year.

 

[onegameatatime]

Egads -- even in a 2008 draft thread, one or two posters have to go to the "LoMo is a bust" and "Pioli has lost it" themes.

 

[Dragda]

Yeah, if only Pioli could find the studs in those rounds the way Polian does. Have a good one.

While the Patriots draft better than most, I admit that the Colts draft better than everyone lately. It's their lifeblood.

 

[Ishdul]

Hey, I calls em like I see em. So it's not good enough for me to say Pioli is the BEST GM in the NFL, I also have to AGREE with every move that he makes? Puhleaze. Should Red Sox fans give Theo Epstein a "pass" on the horrendous JD Drew signing just because they won the world series? Should Bill Gates stop making money because he is already the richest person in the world? Good grief. All I'm looking for Pioli to do is to get a little better at drafting. I think it's reasonable to say that there is room for improvement. I know it's not the language that the homers want to hear, but you can't have EVERYTHING in life. I wanted a STUD running back last year with the #21 pick in the draft and I did not get it! LOL!

You don't have to agree with every move he makes, but you can't just Your problems with his drafting are pretty unfounded; we basically traded out of the 2007 draft and we now have Moss/Welker/higher picks this year + Meriweather, and it's not like the 2006 draft was a disaster or anything, plus he's only 3 years removed from the 2005 draft where we got 4 starters with our first 4 picks and our backup QB with another and he's obviously had success with drafts in the past.

I could go into more detail with the 2006 draft, but really, we have a starting RB, a good kicker, a depth offensive linemen, two STers plus whatever Jackson and Thomas turn into. I mean, at WORST that's a decent draft.

 

[STFarmy]

we shuld totally draft a running back cuz Maroney is teh suxx0rz!!1!!1!1!!11 LOL

 

[patsox23]

The fact of the matter is it shouldn't take a grown-up to have the perspective to realize that, as a general rule, the VAST majority of the time, one needs to judge drafts at LEAST two years down the line, if not 3+. If we were gauging the draft when we got Vince Wilfork, we'd say THAT was a bad pick. Ditto on Warren. NEITHER were all that effective and BOTH were, at best, wildly erratic during their first year and a half.

With that in mind it's pretty clear that NSA and those in agreement are new to the game and/or are trolls whose opinions need to be looked at through that prism.