Time to flip Mankins for an OLB...

[BradyManny]

That's an absolutely nonsensical position. You have ZERO, repeat ZERO, knowledge of what's actually taken place outside of brief public statements which were clearly incomplete. Furthermore, why couldn't a teammate or an ex-teammate call Mankins out? It certainly wouldn't be the first time it happened with the Patriots.

I can't think of a single hold-out where a Patriots player has said anything other than "as a player, I understand his position." In fact, I think what Matt Light said today was straight from a transcript from Brady's comments on Branch in 06.

Neither you nor I have any idea how Mankins' stance is more/less motivated by money than Jackson. The difference between us is that you're pretending such an obvious truth is not the case, while I'm willing to admit to that obvious truth.

I generally think you're even more of a skeptical guy than I am. You're really buying Mankins' stance is about "principles"? It's about getting paid - plain and simple. When Asante Samuel had that tatooed on him, he took a whole lotta crap for it. Why is Mankins any different? Asante Samuel's "principle" was to get paid what he was worth, too.

The Patriots offered Mankins a fair market offer. Maybe Mankins is incredibly naive and just doesn't understand the "negotiating" process, but his reaction was rather absurd and inexplicable. The Patriots gave an offer that could've laid the foundation for a contract. Instead of trying to work from there, he freaked out that he didn't match Evans' # and is trying to shoot his way out town, while disguising his attempt to milk every dollar with this word we keep hearing from his camp, "principles". This is essentially exactly what has transpired. Come on, Deus, you're not that naive to think otherwise. The guy wants to get paid. All there is to it.

 

[BradyManny]

When your principles can be appeased by a certain dollar amount, it's not about principles, period.

Truth. (10)

 

[Deus Irae]

I can't think of a single hold-out where a Patriots player has said anything other than "as a player, I understand his position." In fact, I think what Matt Light said today was straight from a transcript from Brady's comments on Branch in 06.

As I noted, it's not all current players. Zolak is not on the Patriots roster, for example.

I generally think you're even more of a skeptical guy than I am. You're really buying Mankins' stance is about "principles"? It's about getting paid - plain and simple. When Asante Samuel had that tatooed on him, he took a whole lotta crap for it. Why is Mankins any different? Asante Samuel's "principle" was to get paid what he was worth, too.

Again, you have no idea what Mankins' stance is about. Neither do I.

The Patriots offered Mankins a fair market offer. Maybe Mankins is incredibly naive and just doesn't understand the "negotiating" process, but his reaction was rather absurd and inexplicable. The Patriots gave an offer that could've laid the foundation for a contract. Instead of trying to work from there, he freaked out that he didn't match Evans' # and is trying to shoot his way out town, while disguising his attempt to milk every dollar with this word we keep hearing from his camp, "principles". This is essentially exactly what has transpired. Come on, Deus, you're not that naive to think otherwise. The guy wants to get paid. All there is to it.

I'm getting tired of people being willfully ridiculous about this. You don't know what happened. There is a report of an offer that, based solely on the given number (and assuming no games with the contract like D'Bust's deal had), could be considered a "fair market offer" if you didn't bother taking the Evans contract into account. That report was refuted by Mankins' agent. That's the reality of the situation.

You have no idea what really transpired. You are simply playing the good homer and bashing on Mankins while being completely clueless.

On that note, I'm done with this topic in this thread.

 

[BradyManny]

You have no idea what really transpired. You are simply playing the good homer and bashing on Mankins while being completely clueless.

I'm only working with the information that I can see, I'll grant you that. I can say that I don't really care what Scott Zolak thinks on the situation.

I still don't see the link between homerism and bashing on Mankins. Would a good homer bash on Wilfork or Brady?

The fact is, Mankins has behaved in very similar ways as players that previously received an awful lot of criticism for very similar actions - Samuel, Branch - and Mankins has received zero negative pub....why is that? It's because of a savvy agent who took the word "avarice" out of the discussion and replaced it with "principles".

 

[pdangle]

When your principles can be appeased by a certain dollar amount, it's not about principles, period.

Agreed & Seconded.

The approach works beautifully in this situation because the Patriots FO keep everything so cloak and dagger. They will never respond to any accusations and the agent knows this. We as fans are left thinking there MUST be principle breach at stake, why else don't they respond?

The agent gets credit for playing a new card we haven't seen yet though, I'll give him that.

 

[Brady2Welker]

I know the cowboys need some help on their offensive line. How about we trade Mankins for Ware???

I'd give Mankins and a pick for Ware in less than a second.


Zero [known] off field issues, appears to be a locker room presence and hes an elite proven talent.

 

[sbpatfan]

I'd give Mankins and a pick for Ware in less than a second.


Zero [known] off field issues, appears to be a locker room presence and hes an elite proven talent.

1) Mankins isn't signed with the Patriots because they aren't offering enough money so you guys want to remedy the situation by picking up one of the biggest defensive contracts in the league?

2) Maybe in Madden 11, but who in their right mind would trade one of the best 3-4 OLBs to ever play the game for an offensive guard and a draft pick?

Come on guys...

 

[SHOWTIME15]

besides kaczur, what young players can we put in at guard?

i don't know if kaczur fits the guard type - he's got long arms which is more suited for OT. LBs can take advantage of that.

 

[Reckedtrek]

When your principles can be appeased by a certain dollar amount, it's not about principles, period.

This is worth repeating.

Anyone care to pick a losing battle and foolishly argue the point made above?

 

[Calciumee]

This is worth repeating.

Anyone care to pick a losing battle and foolishly argue the point made above?

I think it is one of the best posts on the board in a long time

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

DeMarcus Ware might not fit the Patriots defense.

But DeMarcus Ware would also hate the Pats scheme.

 

[Synovia]

Neither you nor I have any idea how Mankins' stance is more/less motivated by money than Jackson. The difference between us is that you're pretending such an obvious truth is not the case, while I'm willing to admit to that obvious truth.

Those two things are exactly the same.


The difference between him and you is you think yelling louder makes you right.

 

[Wretch]

When your principles can be appeased by a certain dollar amount, it's not about principles, period.

What if the promise the Pats allegedly broke was to make Mankins the highest paid LG in the league? Then it's about money and principles. We don't know what was said. All we can do is make assumptions.

I personally have no problem with any player trying to maximize a contract. They have relatively short careers and many deal with lingering injuries throughout their lives. They should make the money while they can. I also have no problems with an owner saying that a players asking price is too high and not caving in to demands because of a holdout, or refusing to sign the tender in this case.

It's a business, not personal, and both the players and the owners are trying to maximize their revenue and profit. We fans are the ones who have difficulty making the business versus personal distinction more often than the players and owners because we are more emotionally invested in the process.

Most of us would change jobs in a second for a 10-20% pay increase, assuming no change in our working conditions. Why shouldn't we accept that professional athletes have the same motivations we do. The difference for most of us is that the 10-20% equals tens of thousands of dollars over our careers and with the professional athletes it's tens of millions.

I hope the Pats and Mankins come to an agreement because he makes the team I root for better, but if they don't its business not personal and I will not hate either side if they can't.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

besides kaczur, what young players can we put in at guard?

i don't know if kaczur fits the guard type - he's got long arms which is more suited for OT. LBs can take advantage of that.

I call BS.

Here are two arm lengths: 33 3/8-inch and 32 7/8-inch. The first is Mankins, and the other is Kaczur. If Mankins is a two-time pro bowler, then how in the world can shorter arms be a liability that "LBs can take advantage of"?

Really, it's not so hard to figure out how we could trade Mankins. Right now he's not under contract, but I'm sure if we worked out a trade amenable to him, then he would sign as a formality. *shrug*

 

[Christopher Patriot]

If we traded him for woodley I would be the first to buy his jersey! But in reality I could much easier see Thomas Howard or Ahmad Brooks, with a third going to us as well.

 

[DaBruinz]

Branch was already under contract, and the players could point to that as a valid reason for the Patriots to stay firm in their position. In the case of Mankins, you're talking about a quite guy who's considered by many to be, perhaps, the most principled player on the team. For a guy like that to get the shaft over the RFA situation, you're looking at a potential problem with the other players moving forward. Why would you expect the players in the locker room to show anything approaching loyalty to the Patriots after the such a move?

It's amazing how you make the huge leap of the Pats trading Mankins to Mankins being given the shaft by the Pats. Reports came out the deal that Mankins was offered a contract very much in line with the going rates of a top 5 starting LG and he turned it down. One of the things that people seem to forget is that, since Belichick took over, the Pats got out of the "funny money" business at the end of contracts. The Pats try to do a balanced front-load to make up for any discrepancies in a player's contract with a variety of option/roster bonuses.

Hist trying to claim that the Patriots "lied" to him is BS. They tried to and he refused their offer. But that's all we know. We don't know what the sticking points were. And we don't know what, if any, counter Mankins agent sent in. Mankins opened his mouth and stepped in it when he demanded the trade. Are there teams out there willing to pay him some outrageous money? Most certainly. But Mankins isn't ELITE. He's not been consistent enough. And he hasn't made the step into the same company as Hannah or Steve Hutchinson.

 

[mgteich]

I missed the details of what was proposed by the patriots. How much guaranteed money was offered compared the amounts given to other top guards.

It's amazing how you make the huge leap of the Pats trading Mankins to Mankins being given the shaft by the Pats. Reports came out the deal that Mankins was offered a contract very much in line with the going rates of a top 5 starting LG and he turned it down. One of the things that people seem to forget is that, since Belichick took over, the Pats got out of the "funny money" business at the end of contracts. The Pats try to do a balanced front-load to make up for any discrepancies in a player's contract with a variety of option/roster bonuses.

Hist trying to claim that the Patriots "lied" to him is BS. They tried to and he refused their offer. But that's all we know. We don't know what the sticking points were. And we don't know what, if any, counter Mankins agent sent in. Mankins opened his mouth and stepped in it when he demanded the trade. Are there teams out there willing to pay him some outrageous money? Most certainly. But Mankins isn't ELITE. He's not been consistent enough. And he hasn't made the step into the same company as Hannah or Steve Hutchinson.

 

[DaBruinz]

Most of us would change jobs in a second for a 10-20% pay increase, assuming no change in our working conditions. Why shouldn't we accept that professional athletes have the same motivations we do. The difference for most of us is that the 10-20% equals tens of thousands of dollars over our careers and with the professional athletes it's tens of millions.

I hope the Pats and Mankins come to an agreement because he makes the team I root for better, but if they don't its business not personal and I will not hate either side if they can't.

If it was only 10-20% increase that they were talking about, I am pretty sure none of us would have an issue. However, we're talking about a 400-450% increase. Mankins salary last year was just 1.4 million. (cap hit of 2.2 million). Personally, he's not in the ELITE group yet. He just doesn't have the consistency, which is disappointing as he showed the potential to be almost as good as Hannah or Hutchinson. ANd he's not gotten there yet.

 

[DaBruinz]

I missed the details of what was proposed by the patriots. How much guaranteed money was offered compared the amounts given to other top guards.

I didn't see them, specifically. That's why I worded my phrasing ambiguously because I only saw the yearly average. I didn't see any of the other details.

 

[Rob0729]

It's amazing how you make the huge leap of the Pats trading Mankins to Mankins being given the shaft by the Pats. Reports came out the deal that Mankins was offered a contract very much in line with the going rates of a top 5 starting LG and he turned it down. One of the things that people seem to forget is that, since Belichick took over, the Pats got out of the "funny money" business at the end of contracts. The Pats try to do a balanced front-load to make up for any discrepancies in a player's contract with a variety of option/roster bonuses.

Hist trying to claim that the Patriots "lied" to him is BS. They tried to and he refused their offer. But that's all we know. We don't know what the sticking points were. And we don't know what, if any, counter Mankins agent sent in. Mankins opened his mouth and stepped in it when he demanded the trade. Are there teams out there willing to pay him some outrageous money? Most certainly. But Mankins isn't ELITE. He's not been consistent enough. And he hasn't made the step into the same company as Hannah or Steve Hutchinson.

Don't forget Tom Curran said that the Pats offer would make Mankins either the third or fourth highest paid guard in the league depending how you look at the deal. But that is after Jahri Evans got his deal, but the Pats offered Mankins this deal before Evans got his deal. Which means that, if Curran is right, at the time the Pats offered Mankins his contract it was either the second or third best contract for a guard ever.

Assuming that Curran's info is good, I cannot fathom how the Pats gave Mankins the shaft especially since both sides seem to agree the Pats made this initial offer and Mankins never countered. So all we know is the type of initial offer the Pats made and not where they would have bargain to.