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Time for the Offense to Shine

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by denverpatsfan, Oct 18, 2006.

  1. denverpatsfan

    denverpatsfan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well they have had a week off to "fine tune" things. Get the timing down. Work out the "hamstring pulls" and sign future Hall of Famer Jabar Gaffney to the squad.

    I say it's time for a breakout game for Brady and Company. We need to start getting this offense on track. Hopefully the new receivers now realize they must break off their routes when there is a blitz coming.

    We need a good tune up game prior to the showdown with Indy.

    I know nothing specific here but I feel it's about time to stop the excuses and get it done.
  2. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    No excuse? Here you go again. Yeah, I'm sure the Bills defense is just going to lay over and let us do whatever we want. You're really annoying, dude.

    EDIT: Besides the opposing defense and defensive scheme, which you always gloss over.. The situation of 80% turnover at the WR position is still a reality. It will probably be better this week than it has been, but to expect perfection at this stage is simply stupid. It's the sixth game.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2006
  3. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's going to be a season long process. Do I expect improvement ? Absolutely. But I don't expect a switch to have been turned on and to become a scoring maching this week and every week. We should look for the timing and communication to get better, in small amounts, weeks. 11 of those incremental improvements should have the offense in pretty good shape by the playoffs.
  4. TeamPats

    TeamPats Rookie

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    I do feel that if Chad Jackson doesn't see more snaps against Buffalo then he has been, that it is more an attitude problem rather then a problem adjusting to the offense because the bye should give him plenty of time to study up.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2006
  5. LasVegasPatsFan

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    Lets look on the bright side. We are 4-1 and leading our division. All we need to do is make it to the playoffs as anything can happen. Look at what the Steelers did last year. We turned our team around last year as well but feel short against Denver (mistakes took that game). I still have faith.
  6. BelichickFan

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    Live in your little fantasy world if you like but the offense's growth will be a year long process. There will be steps forward and back but the trend should certainly be up.
  7. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    No excuses for the veterans - no excuses for the play calling.

    But I've ALWAYS felt that it is unfair and unreasonable to place expectations and pressure on a Rookie WR.

    Anything he gives you in Year 1 should be looked upon as a bonus - and I think with that sort of expectation we will be pleased by what Jackson can do by the end of the season - going into the playoffs.

    UNFORTUNATELY Jackson is the only one on the team that seems to have any real speed - when healthy - and the status of his hamstring remains questionable.

    So where does that leave us? Gaffney is a short yardage, possession receiver. Caldwell has a history of drops and doesn't run good patterns, Gabriel is tall and I think has good hands but don't feel he has separation speed that defenses respect. Troy Brown can't be looked upon as a speedy deep threat, and is another 3rd down, possession WR.

    So who or how do we stretch the field? Don't count on Jackson given his hamstring and rookie status.

    IMO we are going to have to ask our TEs to do something they are not well suited to do - go fast, go long and stretch the field - on a consistent basis (that's the real trick).

    Specifically Watson and Thomas have shown the ability to do that - its just a question of HOW OFTEN a 250 lb guy can get 20 yards down the field play after play to keep a defense honest.

    Watson hasn't been used like that - likely out of the concern I mentioned above, and the fact that he's very valuable as a typical TE receiver. But Watson's been double teamed consistently too since all teams know he's the preferred receiver, and that no one else on the team requires double coverage.

    Still, if McDaniels sends Watson longer, more often, he'll take his double team with him. This of course is what many here assumed would happen in the pre-season when we looked thin at WR even before losing Branch - and while its not an ideal option, as we'd likely give up some of Watsons' existing production, and it also remains to be seen if Watson can handle the demands - its really the only option we have to stretch the field.

    I also mentioned Thomas, and am a bit surprised he's not been looked to more, but he very clearly does have the ability to get deeper than a typical TE. Between he and Watson my hope would be that they could keep defenses more honest for the remainder of the season.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2006
  8. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    Excuses? You keep using that word. You only need an excuse if something is done not up to standard. We're 4-1.

    You have your own opinions about the offense, but neither the Patriots nor the rest of us fans has to answer to your opinions.

    My view and your view differ, if you choose to put rediculous expectations on this offense in the face of their adversity then fine, blow your smoke.

    But just realize, the Patriots offense does not answer to you or your silly little internet messageboard expectations. And neither do the rest of us posters who happen to disagree with you.

    We're 4-1, who has to make any excuses?? Shoudn't the Dolphins or Bills or Jets be worrying about making excuses?

    Your thought processes are sad, old man!
  9. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Yeah NEM - not another word out of you until you can show that the offense isn't performing well... like, hypothetically, if Brady and his receiving corps had the worst completion rate in the NFL.
  10. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    Hey, the passing offense hasn't been working well consistently. We all know that. We all know that we had 80% turnover at the WR position too. That's a REASON for the low completion percentage, not an EXCUSE.

    I see so many people bashing the passing game, but no one is actually looking at WHY it should be better.

    Why should it be any better than it is? I think it's far overperformed what I expected, but some of you are disappointed and even angry, so tell me WHY it should be doing better.

    We lost our #1 WR, Our #2 WR, our #4 WR, our #5 WR and our #6 WR.

    We kept only our #3 WR from last season in Troy Brown. He's now playing #1 in our offense.

    We signed a bargain bin guy in Caldwell who had never even been considered a solid starter, much less a marquee player.

    We traded a 5th round pick for another bargain player that has potential but has never capitalized on it in Gabriel.

    We drafted a ROOKIE WR in the second round in Chad Jackson.

    And in the bye week we signed another castoff at a bargain price in Gaffney.

    We signed ZERO marquee players. We retained zero marquee players. And we drafted one possible marquee player, but then we all know not to expect much from Rookie WRs.

    On top of that you factor in that both Gabriel and Jackson had less than 3 weeks of TC time combined, and that Gaffney was not here for even the first 5 games, much less TC. Factor in further the fact that both Gabriel and Jackson missed time due to injuries and Jackson at least has yet to play at 100% all season long and then tell me:

    Why should we expect more than what has occured?

    I expected less. Reality suggested that less was likely. Yet the offense has moved the ball and scored points. The 8-3 TD/INT ratio is one of the better ratios in the league.

    I think the disappointment, and subsequent call for RESULTS or EXCUSES, is stemmed from an unrealistic view of the situation, and an unrealistic expectation of the WR position.

    We lost long-time WRs that knew what was going on, replaced them with bargain bin signings and now the passing game is struggling yet still having enough success to win.

    Many teams would implode. The Pats have not. We're 4-1.

    If Brandon Stokely was the only WR left for Peyton, and they replaced Marvin and Wayne by promoting Stokely to #1 and signing budget players to fill out the roster along with a 2nd round rookie would Manning still be lighting up the league?

    Manning has nearly identical stats to Brady's THIS SEASON while he still HAS Marvin and Wayne.

    Please, someone tell me WHY it should be better than it is, I cannot for the life of me figure out how it should be.
  11. denverpatsfan

    denverpatsfan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Maybe Week 6 is still a bit early to expect perfection, but I do expect to notice SOME difference after the extra week of practice with the receivers. I will be looking closely at blitz situations especially.

    Depsite the offensive woes this year, they have closed out several games by taking a knee. How many times did the defense have to hang on for dear life in the SB years. I think that is a big improvement so far this season.
  12. NYCPatsFan

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    Excellent! This is a fantastic analysis. Hopefully this brings the readers a better perspective on the Pats performance and boost their admiration and support for the team. Go PATS!

    PS: That said, let me admit that I am worried that Brady might be hurt. I am not basing that on any report; just my hunch after viewing/comparing his previous season throws with the current one's. Hopefully I am proved wrong. :confused:
  13. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Ohhh! Sorry - I didn't understand the distinction between finding reasons why the offense has performed poorly and excuses as to why the offense has perfomed poorly!

    :rofl:

    In any event, you're preaching to the choir about the lack of personnel - even though a great many people seem to think this is the "most talented group of WRs Brady has ever had" as one thread asserted, it's not, but I do think one could get more out of them.

    I outlined some ways in which I think the playcalling has been deficient and might be changed to help provide a more legitimate deep threat, stretching the field and making other players more productive, but your point about the Colts is a good one.

    They DO have the personnel there - and we don't.

    Has anyone here questioned whether the Colts are as good as their record says they are?

    You bet they have. And they'd be right.

    Has anyone here questioned whether the Patriots are as good as their record says they are?

    You bet they have - and any such comments are clearly not welcome.

    So we can stick our head in the sand down the hashmarks and make believe that all these players will just improve, or we can take a longer, harder look at, from our observations, areas where the team playcalling and use of personnel could be adjusted.

    I agree with the hope of this thread title - time for the offense to shine - but time alone is not going to address our deficiencies. Players are going to have to play beyond themeselves, and playcalling is going to have to get more creative, lest the defenses completely catch on to what they've seen of us in the first 5 games and make it even more difficult for us.

    If nothing changes I'd expect that Defenses will stop worrying about the Air game at all and will key on stopping the running game, knowing that the pass is no real threat - that's NOT what we want to see happen.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2006
  14. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    The term 'excuse' implies that the result should be better than it has been. My point all along has been that it already HAS been better than the reality of the situation suggests it should be, yet people still complain. There's a 'reason' that the Pats offense isn't as good as it was over the past five seasons. That 'reason' needs no 'excuses' because the production is not bad enough to question the status of the passing game in the light of the situation that it's endured. IMO.


    I think this group has more potential than just about any Brady's worked with, but the limited training and practice that the group recieved through TC lends itself to mistakes in the unfamiliarity between the QB and WRs. It'll get better the further along we go, I think.

    I just think it's hard to evaluate playcalling without knowing WHY things are being done the way they are. It's easy to speculate and suggest that something should be happening when it's not, but the staff knows why they're not calling it, and it's not for their health. I believe fully that when the offensive playcalling isn't doing certain things that it's for a very good reason. They're playing safe and trying like hell to avoid turnovers. It's worked pretty well, I think.

    I think that this comparison by you is exactly why I think questioning the Pats is silly. The Colts have UNDERPERFORMED in the passing game. How have we underperformed? We've, if anything, overperformed. If the Colts are underperforming for their standard with their full compliment of wideouts, and we've performed very close to identically with a 80% turnover at the WR position, then HOW is it fair to question the Patriots? They're not in th same boat, but they've gotten nearly the same exact results! That's a GOOD mark on the Patriots, not proof of a bad mark. Maybe I just see it differently than most, I dunno.

    I just think it's common sense that when you stick an entirely new group (well, 80% new) together that it'll take time for them to jell. I'm not sure how thinking that way is sticking anyones head in the sand. I think it's just obvious.

    I think that not every defense is going to stop the run like Miami or Denver did. I think each game will come with it's own gameplan that'll call for different things. I think that this coaching staff knows about how many points they'll need in a given game. I think they also know the best way to get to that number. I think that the difference between the Miami gameplan/outcome and the Bengal gameplan/outcome shows that. And it also shows that we can execute both ways and still win games.
  15. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here is a News flash that you can put on NEM News.

    The Patriots are playing another PROFESSIONAL football team who just lost a game that they felt that they should have won. They have a PROFESSIONAL coaching staff. They will be playing in front of their home fans on their home field.

    All I want is to have a "W" by 4:15 on Sunday afternoon. The rest of you guys can whine about and opine about how we won,if you want to. I'm going to be happy with a WIN because in the NFL there is no such thing as an ugly win. :eek:
  16. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    :ditto:

    This team will only get better. Just like last year when so many were flipping out and all of the "season is over" threads and what did most of us tell them? Relax, once Sey comes back, Bruschi gets acclamated, we figure out who is going to play ILB and once we find an answer at Safety this defense will turn it around. What happened again? I don't find it illogical to think that this offense will continue to improve and should be a force to reckon with come January.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2006
  17. Grizzafted

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    You guys need to relax. This is a bunch of grown men talking about a sports team on the internet, here. Take it for what it is.
  18. hwc

    hwc Rookie

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    Chad Jackson is a rookie who missed ALL of training camp. It's not just a matter of "studying up". He's got to adjust to the entire pro game on the fly.

    If he makes a contribution to this team as a role player this year, he's doing pretty darn well.
  19. Patjew

    Patjew PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You're in the wrong place with that attitude.
  20. Patjew

    Patjew PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with that. I think we'd all like to see week-to-week improvement, with the understanding that the other team will dictate certain things.
  21. VJCPatriot

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    Sorry but this comment seems rather baseless. What the hell does a hamstring injury have to do with his attitude? If he is healed he should be able to play if he doesn't he won't. The extra time off should give him the time he needs to heal hopefully. But who knows. I'm not the Pats team physician and injury info is kept as secret as the the colonels recipe for fried chiken.

    I'd love for this Pat's offense to get on track. Sure. But I wouldn't expect perfection, it's not realistic. But they should have made some adjustments at least.
  22. AzPatsFan

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    Denver

    I would point out that they already have had the offensive bustout. Scoring 38 against a SB contender would constitute an offensive show in anyone's book, IMHO.
  23. AzPatsFan

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    Duh... It has...

    After all the sound and fury signifying just about nothing; I would point out that the prersent offense "without any major league receivers"' and an "idiot as as an OC" is scoring at a rate superior to the 2001 Super bowl winner. It is scoringat a rate equal to the 2003 Super Bowl winner; and with the easy part of its schedule still coming up, it can approach the scoring rate of the the 2004 Super bowl team.:rocker:

    Meanwhile the derided defense is giving up points at a rate superior to ANY of The Pats Super bowl clubs.:rocker:
  24. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I would have agreed with your first statement, but the injury report came out and Jackson isn't on it. I (we) wouldn't know the true reason if he doesn't get on the field a lot this week, so I don't think we can assume anything. It could be the gameplan, his knowledge of the offense or his attitude. I wouldn't rule anything out but I wouldn't assume anything either.
  25. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Duh... It has...

    The thing that would make the 03 team more impressive is the fact that they beat seven 10+ win teams during the regular season. Based on this season's schedule it would lessen that a bit, but it doesn't make what they are doing irrelevent and it should make every Pats fan happy.
  26. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Unfortunately, although the widespread sentiment here seems to be that the only thing the Patriots passing attack needs is "time", one can't "learn" speed and route running skills if they are non-existent.

    That's why creative playcalling is going to be a major factor to keep Defenses off balance.

    The first 5 games have been a feeling out process for other defenses testing us - given what we've shown - or rather haven't shown, I'd fully expect Defenses to collapse, eliminate any respect for a long game they may have had in the early part of the season, work to shut down the running game, and challenge Brady to beat them with his arm.

    Any other season we'd happilly accept that challenge, but given the personnel Brady has to work with - and the proven "success" of the worst completion percentage in the NFL - that's exactly what I'd do if I were a DC for another team.
  27. PatsSteve1

    PatsSteve1 Rookie

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    * There's also the possibility that some of the players aren't that good. The other team's D doesn't just stand there either. Even the high scoring Bears O didn't get a TD against the Cards. The Pats O is scoring less than a point less than the 2003 SB team. The idea isn't to score a lot of points. It's to win the game.
  28. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your points are valid and as usual you state your case clearly. The only thing I don't get is why you feel we don't have speed. Gabriel has been behind coverage a few times and Brady over or under threw him. Jackson is fast, I think :D not sure about Gaffney. As a whole they may not be burners but I don't think we had that last year either. Dwight was fast and so was Davis and we saw the same thing, deep incompletions. The only guy that got behind coverage and caught deep balls consistently was Branch and I attribute that to two things: Branch is good and he was on the same page with Brady.
  29. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I'm really not all that down on Gabriel - of all the players I think he will show major improvement over time. He's not the fastest player, but he's not slow either - was running a 4.54 40 yrd dash coming out of college.

    The past knock on Gabriel has been that he's not a great route runner - and that's something that the Patriots - specifically with Branch - liked to do - i.e. run a deep route. So unless there's vertical separation - and thus far there hasn't been that much - at least not deep with him - he's not going to do more than keep a CB occupied, leaving the SS and FS to collapse.

    (Some of those "underthrows" by the way looked very much to me like Gabriel may have turned the wrong way or otherwise miscommunicated with Brady)

    Jackson is indeed a burner - but as I said before, while I advocated for drafting Jackson, it was with the thought that he'd need a year to develop like nearly every rookie does. And that was before he injured his hamstring - so expecting him to tear up the stopwatch like he did in the combine - and still be a credible threat to actually CATCH the ball, isn't something we should count on.... maybe he can contribute in the playoffs, but a guy who thrives on speed with an injured hamstring is not a good combination.

    Gaffney's not a bad signing but doesn't do anything to address the deep threat - he averages less than a TE in average receptions - he's a possession WR and if he plays like he is capable, its like having another Troy Brown on the field.

    So while its not like we've signed a bunch of replacement players, we don't currently have a credible deep threat - Watson and Thomas are the best deep options we have - but at 250lbs one has to question their breakaway ability and endurance - but of course even using them deep would fall under "creative playcalling" and the vast majority of fans seem to think that McDaniels playcalling is just fine the way it is.
  30. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Can't argue with any of that and as you should know we were in aggreement about the WR situation in the offseason. I actually see improvement each week and see that the Pats aren't sleeping on the position and it leads me to believe that it will continue to get better.

    I don't know if you saw my post in the other thread, it listed our WR stats from 03 and 04. This group of WR's can beat that, can they come up with the big catch in the key moments...we'll have to wait and see.

    I don't feel much either way on McDaniels because IMO Brady is determining what play he will run of the 2 or 3 called into his helmet. I may be looking to much into that but I believe Brady has a huge say in how this offense is run and what plays are executed during the game. Brady hinted to that in an interview he had during the offseason on Sirius.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2006

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