Welcome to PatsFans.com

Time For Some Mea Culpas

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mb6592, Mar 11, 2007.

  1. mb6592

    mb6592 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Now that the team has spoken and the true experts have weighed in on whether or not a major upgrade to the wr position was needed, time for mea culpas from those of you that dissed anyone who suggested a major upgrade to the wr position was in order. Please take this opportunity to acknowledge your shortcomings here. Many of you have scoffed at our lack of understanding of the Patriots (the Patriot offense is predicated on spreading the ball around so anyone will do, Gaffney and Caldwell are more than adequate, the shortcomings of the offense had nothing to do with our receivers, the receiver position is overrated...). Only full apologies will be accepted - no half apologies. I'm talking to you Maverick4 "receiver is not an area of need for this team...I think wr can be among the most hyped up positions in football.." and Oswlek "we don't need...a guy who is absolutely better than Caldwell and Gaffney.." and DaBruinz "the Pats don't need more talent on offense to have a better offense..." and PatsFanVa and Kdo5 and others. All apologies will be accepted without reservations.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2007
  2. Captain Cliche

    Captain Cliche Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    377
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Let me be the first. I was wrong. Receiver is NOT a plug and play position.
  3. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    20,550
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    No question, Welker was a major upgrade, but that begs the question - define "major" upgrade? I ask because the Pats have been investing in relatively low cost WRs since they signed Reche a year ago (in the search for finding a castoff who could blossom working with Tommy). In terms of money spent, it still doesn't seem as if the WR portion of the Salary Cap has gotten out of hand. Let's face it, Welker is the only WR signing in the past year who was sought for his "production", the rest are Free Agents who didn't rate too highly on pundit & team shopping lists (ESPN's ranking of Stallworth as Top 10 notwithstanding).
  4. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    40,315
    Likes Received:
    19
    Ratings:
    +19 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I thought our receiving corps were adequate and did not see the necessity of a major upgrade.. well I was wrong, BB was right, these guys will be good. Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa...
  5. Brady to Brown

    Brady to Brown Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:


    lol, well played. I don't understand how fans did not think this was a priority for Belichick. He tried to sign Mason when Branch and Givens were on the team. Never mind the fact that Brady was clearly not happy last year.
  6. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    9,798
    Likes Received:
    21
    Ratings:
    +24 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Thanks so much for raising this issue. All through last pre-season I was pointing to the lack of a deep threat as a major concern even with Branch on the roster, and then suggested that a deep threat in the draft and pre-season trade was in order (as I cautioned people not to expect much from a rookie in Year 1)

    Later, even though I recognized that as of mid-season there weren't exactly a ton of options to improve, just pointing out how it limited our offense and shortned the field wasn't welcomed around here.

    I definately felt that some questioned my "Patriotism" for suggesting that the team had a major flaw that needed to be addressed. I'm not expecting anyone to come back and tell me I was right now - its just good enough for me to know that I was on the same page with BB & SP

    The bottom line is that as of today, barring injury, we have the strongest WR corps Brady has ever had, including a strong deep threat, the posession receiver of the future, two very good short down specialists (I have said I was wrong about Caldwell - he's proved his value - but he remains a shorter yardage option - not a deep field threat) all of whom will ensure improved numbers from our TEs & RBs, and less pressure on Brady.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2007
  7. BradyisGod

    BradyisGod Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Disagree.

    The roster has changed since the 2006 season already. The 2006 season saw a pretty strong running game with Dillon, Faulk and Maroney, and could stand to survive without grade A receivers. We've lost a piece of that with the Dillon departure. While they may pick up another RB through the draft or something, I think this is just an attempt at trying another way to "skin the cat".

    A blown coverage and a 12 man penalty kept the Pats from the SuperBowl. Neither of those had anything to do with the receivers.

    Lastly, to echo other's points, lets see what kind of upgrade this is before we call it "major".
  8. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,730
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:


    I fixed it for you.
    Believe me, I did you a favor.
    But for grins, come back and read this stuff in a couple of years.
  9. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    12,304
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +23 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I agree with J6P and the original poster. My eyes were opened after the AFC Championship game. Once you get into the postseason, sometimes just muddling along with middling talent receivers that can't stretch the field is NOT enough to get the job done. I am so happy that I won't have to count on Caldwell as the Pats #1 wide receiver on the depth chart next season. I think Brady is happy too. Although he is too classy to ever directly diss his own receivers I can assure you that these signings put his mind a TON at ease and he will be looking forward to working with his new weapons on offense. Remember, anything that make's Tom Brady's job easier gives the Pats a BETTER chance to win. And that alone justifies the calls I was making to upgrade the wide receivers after the end of the playoffs last season.

    I expect the Patriots offense to be greatly improved next year. I can't know for sure that these moves guarantee another superbowl win obviously because I can't see the future. But on paper, this team has become stronger than ever. Bravo to the Pats front office for addressing a huge area of need, an area of need that many Pats posters ignored and denigrated because of their blinding lust for linebackers.

    I never disagreed that linebacker was a need, I merely did not agree with the position that the wide receiver position was not also in need of a major upgrade. I don't expect any of those guys to post their mea culpas, I'll just be satisfied knowing that the actions of the Pats front office this offseason spoke louder than any words about the Patriots most pressing team NEEDS.

    Last edited: Mar 11, 2007
  10. Boston Boxer

    Boston Boxer U.S. Air Force Retired PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,406
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #75 Jersey
    i applaud your post...it takes balls for someone with 27 posts to call other posters out on the carpet.
  11. mb6592

    mb6592 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    You sound pretty foolish disagreeing with BB and Pioli. And for you to suggest they concentrated on the wr position because of Dillon's departure is more than funny. Another way to skin a cat? You are one of those that can never be wrong? Right?
  12. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2005
    Messages:
    17,518
    Likes Received:
    39
    Ratings:
    +49 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #75 Jersey
    Aren't you going to wait until the season's played until you declare this a success?

    Oh wait, your a phantasy phootball phan, actual wins and performance are irrelevant.

    You may now commence using the pat on back machine.
  13. mb6592

    mb6592 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Fantasy football? This is about BB and Pioli addressing the wr position (a position that many here felt needed little or no addressing). Are you suggesting BB and Pioli are concerned with fantasy football? I don't understand your post. BB and Pioli addressed the wr position not fantasy football afficionados (and for the record I despise fantasy football - despise it).
  14. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,755
    Likes Received:
    52
    Ratings:
    +71 / 3 / -0

    My Jersey:


    Ok, just because you're acting the part of a troll:

    Troy Brown was on the team last year and will likely be retiring, therefore Welker isn't "addressing" a problem from last season, he's replacing a talented player who's moving on. That leaves Stallworth.

    As for Stallworth, everyone seemed to be in agreement that Jackson was drafted to provide the deep speed for the team. An injury plagued rookie season ended by a torn acl has now resulted in Belichick going out and getting a... wait for it..... deep speed player to play Jackson's role.

    So, in other words, two free agent moves have been made at receiver to make up for issues that have come up SINCE the end of the season. There's no need for any "mea culpa" on the part of anyone, since the injuries suffered by Jackson mean that the jury is clearly still out on him as a player.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2007
  15. BradyisGod

    BradyisGod Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    You must be one of those young, "I know everything" types.

    Please find somewhere in my post where I said I disagreed with signing Stallworth or Wes Welker. All I'm saying is that the situation is now different than it was. It is the Patriots FLEXIBILITY that makes them successful.

    And if disagreeing with BB/Pioli makes one foolish, then wouldn't last year YOU have been foolish to think that the receivers were inadequate when BB/Pioli thought they had enough talent to compete?
  16. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,730
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Ray, I fixed his initial post for him. He's new, and young, and like you said, a phantasy phootball phan.

    mb6592. Here is a post I added to another thread. I hope this helps you understand what really took place today.
    I disagree. The Pats have all but one of all possible options. There is a contract in place. If he lights the world on fire (doubtful) we can honor it. No option there for the player. If we choose not to honor it, we can try to restructure the deal. Again, we have options there. We can honor the contract in spirit, but make it more cap friendly. Or we can restructure it down. Those are team options. Here is where the player has the only option: he can refuse the restructuring. The team may release him either due to underperformance or refusal to agree to the terms of the restructuring. Again, no options for the player there.

    It speaks volumes as to where the team and the player are right now. The team needs that downfield guy for this season to clear the zones, and perhaps catch a few deep ones. The team is not sure CJ will be ready in time. They have the one year fix here, with some potential upside.

    The player is desperate to overhaul his image. Rumors of substance abuse abound. Injury history and rumors of being a poor influence in the locker room nag at his heels. He needs to prove himself as a quality WR, with a quality personality and character, playing in a quality system. If successful he can deflect these negatives and silently "hint" that he was a victim of the system he was in. He can then cash in on his new found teflon image either here, or elsewhere.

    Thats what this signing is and means. It is what it is. Nothing more. It does not represent a change of philosophy by the team.
  17. mb6592

    mb6592 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Not young. Not a know it all. I don't know if you agree or disagree with the signings as my post doesn't speak to that. My post speaks to the following: you stated, "The 2006 season saw a pretty strong running game with Dillon, Faulk and Maroney, and could stand to survive without grade A receivers." BB and Pioli clearly disagreed, thus my comment. And disagreeing with BB and Pioli doesn't make one foolish, but implying that they strongly addressed the wr position because of Dillon's depature does. DILLON LEAVING WAS NOT THE REASON FOR THEIR STRONG PUSH TO UPGRADE THE WR POSITION.
  18. mb6592

    mb6592 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    It's certainly possible that BB and Pioli would not have spent all this time (and money) addressing the wr position if not for Brown's possible retirement and Jackson's injury.
  19. ClevTrev

    ClevTrev Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,341
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    The great thing I've discovered about this forum is that we all have an opportunity to present varying views that, as long as we argue them logically, are plausible to the majority of posters.

    The point is that over the past 6 years, the faith I've formed with the Patriots management team gives me confidence that they will make the right decision in the vast majority of all cases. Givens, McGinest, Branch, Adam, and others were hard decisions, but needed to be made to maintain team quality and balance.

    The Stallworth decision is a perfect example of this discipline and league awareness. Rather than second guess this team anymore, I find myself waiting to see how they play a situation, since it's usually the most sound action to take. If they had to reach and upset the balance of the team, the Stallworth sigining would never had been made. This is true with AD, Welker, Brady and others. Yeah, the koolaid is good, but I've no reason to think that they'll screw up given their continued success. Thanks for the ride!!! It's still fun!
  20. mb6592

    mb6592 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    numbnuts, I've been a member of this forum for longer than you. Just because I don't post to up my post count doen't make you any wiser. I just remember many members getting ripped for suggesting a wr upgrade was needed.
  21. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,730
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Numbnuts? Oh, and my post count is so huge! I've been gentle and polite. Not any more you ******* idiodic pinhead!!! Why dont you do yourself a favor and google Wikipedia to read how this offense is constructed before you go opening your mouth and showing your lack of intelligence again. Moron!
  22. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2005
    Messages:
    17,518
    Likes Received:
    39
    Ratings:
    +49 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #75 Jersey
    No, I'm suggesting you're full of it, find one affordable WR deal and think it confirms all your misbegotten receiver worship because they choose to address wide receiver position in FA in a year when they had a ton of cap money to spend.

    Do you know why they had a ton of cap money?

    Drafted Sey, Warren and Wilfork instead of the latest sexy WR every year.

    Got their young line drafted and signed while, (insert WR lust panic of the year here).

    Locked up Seymour, Brady and Koppen while your ilk was screaming "trade everything for Moss'.

    Let Meion walk and resited spending in panic last year while moving money ahead.

    Let Givens walk and showed some patience. Obviously you haven't been here that long before you started calling out posters by name, but I'm guessing "sign Givens and Branch at any price was consistent) if not.......

    We don't need speed receivers? We drafted Jackson, everyone forgot about that. Let's hope the savior and writer of all wrongs doesn't have a poor start
    and get tossed on the WR phan scrap heap in favor of the latest heart throb.

    But you win, our biggest high dollar acquisition out of 5 signings is an exciting Wr....wait....isn't A.D. the biggest signing, biggest contract?

    And he's a linebacker, (for you PPP, a linebacker plays on the other side of the field on defense.

    His job is mostly to stop those RBs, who are the guys who run, or something, on the plays the QB isn't passing to the exciting WR).

    So, to review, the Patriots have lots of money and few needs because they already built solid lines on both side of the ball. They really went for a possession receiver, (Welker) and took a shot at a fast WR that's in the substance abuse program and is a bargain.

    Are they taking a wild gamble on Stallworth? Follow me now, I know you can because this only involves WRs.

    The Patriots spend the lowest pick in round 3 on the 15th rated, (Gil Brandt NFL.com) WR in 2002. Get some excellent service, but refuse to buckle and overpay, (contract year).

    Trade for 1st round pick. Pick up 4th rated, (Gaffney) and 6th rated (Caldwell) of 2002 for zilch.

    Donte's star is fading, (dropped by 2 teams, substance, some injuries), so Pats swoop in and pick him up in a reasonable contract that will look great if he succeeds.

    Stallworth is the #1 rated WR in 2002.

    Seattle has Deion, huge contract, (we Would have needed to add 5 million to it).

    We gave up bottom pick in 2nd.

    We get:

    1st round pick of Seattle

    #1 Rated WR of 2002 for less money than Branch

    #4 Rated WR of 2002 for much less than Branch or Givens

    #6 Rated WR of 2002 for much less than Branch or Givens

    Bottom line, BB and Pioli are thieves. They're going to steal whatever they can and the googly eyed WR worshippers are easy marks.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2007
  23. mb6592

    mb6592 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    "He's new, and young, and like you said, a phantasy phootball phan" - -none of that is true that explains the numbnuts comments. But I will stop, just what did you mean you fixed it (the post) for me? I don't understand, nothing was changed? And what does how the offense is constructed have to do with the original premise of this thread?
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2007
  24. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,730
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    You stop, fine, I'll stop. You have registered before me, and perhaps you aren't that young either. You say you dont like fantasy leagues. I believe you. Your opinions however, seem to be based on what one can hear on ESPN or NFLN. Hence the negativity you have encountered. Seriously, it is best to understand the corporate philosophy of the organization, the mentality of the team, and the mechanics, philosophy and scheme of the offense and defense as designed and created; and base all comments as to how the situation fits or doesnt fit that overall system that is the Patriots. Anything else is trying to fit square pegs into round holes. And will be roundly attacked here.

    As far as fixed it, go back and carefully read my first post, and the quote I took and "fixed". It was done in humor, to diffuse an obvious attempt to start a flame war. One that I now (hopefully no more) find myself in the middle of.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2007
  25. mb6592

    mb6592 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    OK, I see where this is going (Brown retiring -which everyone knew was a possibility BEFORE they posted on the lack of need to address the wr position -and Jackson's injury was the reason bb and Pioli addressed the wr's, the large cap room -which everyone also was aware of before their posts - made a wr signing a no brainer, these wr's signings are not that extraordinary and are in keeping with past wr signings....). Whatever, seems to me that BB and Pioli sat down after the season and said one of the first orders of business is to address the wr position. That is what many of us also said, and many others disagreed with.
  26. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    12,304
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +23 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Can we tone down the hostility in this thread? The Pats felt they had some needs at wide receiver and filled them end of story. I'm glad the Pats signed Stallworth to a nice incentive laden contract, that makes him a better bargain. But because he is a better bargain that didn't mean a speed wideout was not a need for this team.

    It is pretty well documented how defenses were cheating up on the Pats offense to stop the running game last year. Lack of speedy wideout was one of the primary culprits for allowing that to happen. Can't we just be content that the Pats front office addressed an obvious need without ripping into other fans who simply have different "philosophies" on what is needed to win?

    Hate playing peacemaker, but seriously guys chill out. The Pats just had one of their best offseasons in recent memory. We should be drinking some more Koolaid yo, not ripping into our brothers.
  27. Seneschal2

    Seneschal2 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,221
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I talked about the VALUE of a stretch-the-field receiver in this thread: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ad.php?t=51862&page=4&highlight=stretch field

    Some folks aren't aware that EVERY season BB & Co. attempt to upgrade the roster in areas that need attention. Whether it's replacing departed players, or strengthening weaknesses, they find more ways to win. The signing of Stallworth isn't necessarily a slam against our current WR corps, but more of a statement that a legitimate deep threat added to that corps, would bring an element to the offense that would make our offense difficult to defend.

    We don't need a deep threat to win; but we also don't need Welker to win; or AD for that matter. But THEY'RE ALL UPGRADES. And that's what BB/Pioli do, evaluate the entire roster from bottom to top seeking ways to improve the TEAM, based on the opportunities available. Why is it some posters don't get this? Instead we read threads like the following, which contains some real head scratching comments:

    ---

    In attempt to provide some logic, I posted this quote from an NFL QB, which to me at least emphasizes the value of a deep threat. Something that BB obviously knows -- but some posters don't understand:

  28. mb6592

    mb6592 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I see. And I will agree that none of these signings were contrary to their philosophy, but even within that philosopy they choose what needs to address and wr (IMO) was stressed by BB and Pioli.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2007
  29. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    18,260
    Likes Received:
    21
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #75 Jersey
    I wish you all the best in your quest to solve your issues.
  30. PATRIOTS-80

    PATRIOTS-80 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,786
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    You laid it out very well Ray Clay....

    I'm very happy about our new LB, A.D. I'm also really excited about Wes Welker. He's going to be a move-the-chains type WR.

    And as far as our 1 year deal with Donte, good steal. I can't stand Randy Moss and all the crap that goes with signing him. BTW, I like that phrase "googly eyed WR worshippers". :D
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2007

Share This Page