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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Box_O_Rocks, May 7, 2010.

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  1. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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  2. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Nice find Box. And some nice insight on our kids.

    Bill is always ahead of the curve. He just didn't have the right TE's. Both were reluctant blockers coming out of college and maybe because it wasn't in their pedigree they were injured a lot learning the role. Graham became a solid blocker, but he hated the role. And athletic as he was, Watson could never master chewing gum while walking. Sounds like this crop has been genetically altered to be multi dimentional coming out of college... because of the spread of the spread.

    Bad news for all the WTF is our fullback let's get back to pounding the rock crowd... Now if they can get Maroney integrated into the short passing game, what's comin' next will be a formational diagnostic crap shoot...:D
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  3. NEGoldenAge

    NEGoldenAge Banned

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    If Crumpler really has trimmed up, and gotten significantly quicker, we could have a pretty sick 3 TE formation. That group would create some serious matchup problems.
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  4. PatsChamp88

    PatsChamp88 Rookie

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    Nice read... I can't wait to see these guys light up the Jest!
  5. jczxohn1

    jczxohn1 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Interesting that the article mentioned Gresham, at first but based the rest on the Pat's 2 picks. Physically, this "new breed" of TE compares to the defensive equivalent of the successful DE/OLB conversion project. Hopefully, with a more agile Crumpler, they will prove competitive against Ryan's blitz pkgs.
  6. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm very happy with the TEs the Patriots picked, but the article is utter hogwash.

    Teams are NOT suddenly drafting more tight ends for strategic reasons. The average number of TEs drafted in the last four years of this decade is precisely the same as in the first four years of this decade. This year it happened to be the deepest position in the draft, so teams took a lot of them, that's all.

    Check it out: all of the receiving threats who are supposed to be the prototypes of this "new breed" that "everybody wants" -- Hernandez, Pitta, Dickerson -- went much LATER than expected in this draft. That's not a sign of increased demand, it's increased supply!

    Hogwash, I tells ya, hogwash. :snob:
  7. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Weakening one area to theoretically strengthen another. Meet the new NFL, same as the old NFL.
  8. eom

    eom Rookie

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    this season can't start soon enough.
  9. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    In five years the spread will be dead. It will rest at the bottom of Lake Ichigumi with the K-Gun, the original shotty, the run and shoot, the wing-t, and certain west coast concepts. It's not difficult to anticipate this trend, and the league is already shifting. Spread is speed and space. Defenses adjust to disrupt the timing and get into quick pursuit angles. Offenses will eventually get beat by these upfield/penetration, and realize what Joe Gibbs did two decades ago. Block the defenders and they are at your mercy. So, like in anything else, the balance shifts back towards blocking and physical football. Not too difficult to grasp, and certainly nothing brilliant, but far too often
    media is well behind the trend.

    As Patchick pointed out, it's not a demand conversation but a supply conversation. Don't get me wrong- there are some great tight ends that are coming out. However, a guy like Gronkowski is much more of a true TE than Hernandez or Jimmy Graham. There will be excellent opportunities to utilize their skill sets, but the position and the game as a whole will always seek it's own level. Those who become enamored with the offense will be out thought, out strategized, and eventually become obsolete. Those that can take the concepts with validity each new trend brings can anticipate the shifts, and grow mentally.

    They're getting tougher, more physical on offense. They recognize this trend. Now bring me my fullback! :)
  10. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Preach on!

    +1 (if we had rep)
  11. condon84

    condon84 Rookie

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    I think you're way off here. The spread and pass happy trend will continue because of all the rule changes that favor the passing game. QBs can't be hit too hard now, receivers can't get laid out anymore while making a catch, simply touch a receiver after 5 yards and it's a penalty, etc.

    Sorry, but the spread is here to stay unless they change the rules again to favor physical play.
  12. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What's old is new and what's new is old. That's the way of the world isn't it ;).
  13. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    1) Who had the best defense in the NFL last year?
    2) What was their primary philosophy?
    3) Research anti-spread concepts.
    4) Spread is quick hitting. Chuck rule is irrelevent.
  14. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You might want to explain that to Belichick, because he's getting a different reading from the tea leaves....

    Quick hits from Belichick radio interview - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston
  15. condon84

    condon84 Rookie

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    From what I've seen Belichick do with our team, signing Springs last year, Bodden this year, drafting Wheatley, Wilhite, Butler, and now McCourty, YET leaving a OLB in Tully who is weak against the run as one of our starters, and leaving the other OLB spot open to competition to Crable, Cunningham, Ninkovich, Woods, or whoever they bring, PLUS not addressing the other DE spot with a gap-controlling run stuffing player, instead signing one-gap players like Lewis and Warren to compete against Wright, who sucks against the run, leads me to believe that either BB is complete full of $H!T, or he's simply giving all of us lip service.

    Just look at the past 2 SB winners and participants:

    Saints vs Colts
    Steelers (on the strength of Roethlisburger's arm with no running game that year) vs Cardinals

    They've made even more changes the past two years. Now you can't hit a receiver jumping for a catch? LOL. Receivers used to fear laying out in the middle of the field because they'd get destroyed, now they call that a penalty on the defense for hitting a defenseless receiver. Receivers are now running wild. Not to mention the protection the QBs get from all the officials.

    Nope, I don't see the trend going the other way. Rules have changed and unless they revert back to allow more physicality, it's not logical for the trend to go the other way.
  16. condon84

    condon84 Rookie

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    The Saints had the #25 defense last year and won the SB. The Colts, had the #18 defense and beat the #1 defense scoring 30 pts.
  17. eom

    eom Rookie

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    balance a tack hammer on your head, and you will be able to head off a balanced attack.
  18. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Two men are drinking in a bar. The first one turns and says

    "It's a dog eat dog world."


    The second one thinks about it for a while, and then replies:


    "Yeah, but sometimes it's the other way around."
  19. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    Oh because if BB says it, then it must be true. :rolleyes:
    The Jets, what does that have to do with spread offense? Sometimes the defense wins against spread offenses (Giants super bowl 42) and sometimes they lose (Jets AFC Championship game).
    Last edited: May 8, 2010
  20. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    And therein lies my point. If you are proactive, you will be succesful. If you are reactionary you will fail. Check my man D's evidence, dude. The trend don't lie. If I want tips on how to find killer c*mshot avatars, I'll talk to you. If you wanna learn ball, come talk to me.
  21. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Given my criticism of Belichick over the course of last year, my refusal to buy into the "BB, therefore correct" mantra, and the resultant nonsense I've been subjected to by the rabid homers, I can only assume you're kidding with this response to me.
    Last edited: May 8, 2010
  22. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    I know you question BB but it seems like you're sticking up for him on this one.
  23. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There's nothing to stick up for.
  24. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    The Pats are a reactionary defense, so their screwed right? And Condon84's avatar is pretty disgusting.
  25. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    We're not talking rings, bro, we're talking D. Especially in respect to building a team that can compete in future seasons. The reason why The Jets were so succesful defensively is that the Rex Ryan D was so great this year was that it was the perfect spread killer. Upfield and pursuit is what his phiosophy always has been. This is how to beat the spread. Spagnoloulo's design was exactly the same, but he had more horses. To beat the upfield scheme, you simply block it and reduce your routes. This really isn't deep thought process.
  26. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    I got nothing on this one. Maybe I misunderstood you.
  27. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    It's not that simple. Two gap is a run philosophy. It is by far the most effective run D. Pass defense is everybit as creative as offense. In the context of pass D, the upfield Patriots were the hallmark of the championship teams. The '05-'08 defenses played too much dual high with nothing underneath. Cover-2, cover-4, cover-6, cover-8, all were bad fits. In '09, we saw significantly more upfield D that resulted in 4th quarter leads. Peas got fired for the cover-4 I was so adamently against all season.

    You draft rookies for the future design of the system, not immediate change.
  28. condon84

    condon84 Rookie

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    I'm not following your argument. I'm saying that the spread attack is here to stay based on the fact that the rules have tipped in favor to pass happy teams. Proof is in the past two SB participants and winners.

    But the Saints winning also makes your point?
  29. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    My point is that current result is not a barometer of future success. First, you are looking at a sample that is flawed. Your main argument hinges upon the chuck rule. 99% of the spread is effective within the first five yards, thus negating the chuck rule. The 07 Patriots were effective because they seamlessly blended chuck rule advantages with spread concepts while having the best receiver in the NFL (83, not 81).

    The spread is based on option routes. Option routes aredetermined in one step. The DB is mandated to play either inside or outside technique. In Themistocles basic example, the QB reads the unplayed shoulder which is where the WR cuts to. Press is important inetially in deflecting the route, but the decision is made inside of five yards. Fundamental downfield techniques such as grabbing jersey, hand chucks, and leg knocks have been negated but these are ancilary to scheme.

    The spread is beaten by press, pursuit, and blitzing to disrupt timing. This is what Joe Gibbs identified in the 80's. He blocked the defense and had great success. Football is inherrently cyclical. Teams have been adjusting to the spread, and if one can remain in front of what is happening, they will be succesful. Instead of viewing past succes, find ways to negate it. From there find ways to beat the current trend. Don't be reactive, be proactive.
  30. condon84

    condon84 Rookie

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    That's a good post. But what's bolded is what I disagree with you simply because there's a different variable that's now in place that wasn't in place before, and those are all the rule changes.

    Also, while you're theory that pressuring both receivers and QBs is the way to defend spread attacks, it only works when you have the personnel to do it. The reason why the Jets were successful was because they had a shutdown corner which negated the opposing offense's best WR. Plus, their other CBs were also solid, add to the fact that they had guys that knew how to blitz and were put in position (3rd and longs) to be successful.

    Compare the Jets D to the Saints D. While both D's philosophy is to pressure opposing offenses, the Saints were far less successful compared to the Jets which again leads to the difference in personnel.

    While I agree that more defenses will be prepared for spread attacks simply because a lot of teams are now successfully using the spread and forcing teams to adjust, I don't think you're going to see a lot of teams deviate from the pass heavy offenses that they've installed simply because defenses are now better prepared against the spread. The rules are just too skewed in favor of the passing offense. It's almost an annual occurance as of late for rules to change to keep pushing the league to be more pass heavy. It looks good on TV, and makes the NFL more money. I don't see this changing.
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