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Ths is scary.

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PATSNUTme, Dec 7, 2011.

  1. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey
    Obama: Limited Gov't That Preserves Free Markets 'Doesn't Work. It Has Never Worked' | CNSnews.com

    Coming from the POUS, this is scary. Knowing what is happening to many counties in Europe, this is scary.

    I don't think anyone from the center or center right is advocating getting rid of all regulation. But he is making the case for over regulation which is stiffing the enconomic recovery and casuing energy prices to stay high. And it is causing the massive government debt that threatens to pull down the economy even further.

    He either doesn't get it or doesn't want to get it, both of which are scary.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2011
  2. Gainzo

    Gainzo Rookie

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    What I find scary is letting Corporations do whatever they want.

    The only reason the right thinks that everything is over regulated is because the Bush Administration did their best to strip the EPA, and other regulatory agencies, of funding and putting special interest people in key positions in those agencies.

    Taxes are very low compared to the Reagan, Bush 1, and Clinton years.
  3. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    And spending is excessively high compared to those years as well.


    This guy should take a look across the pond before he makes speeches about how awesome it is to have an over regulated, over spending, over taxed, big government, nanny type system. That "doesn't work" pal. Maybe if this guy had a real job at some point in his life, he'd understand more about economics. It's not no regulation, it's over regulation. It's not no government, it's too much government. It's not no taxes, it's too much taxation. It's not no spending, it's spending yourself into oblivion.
  4. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Well, that's simply terrific. Straw men, galore!

    Say, do you happen to have a link to a site actually worth reading (that is, not CNSnews.com)?
  5. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Everything about this guy (Jug Ears) is scary, if he gets re-elected then he'll really go nuts he won't have anything to lose he can raise all the hell he wants, he will probably start another American Civil War.

    I wonder where the hell the clown was born?

    Obama has been keeping all of his bad crap for his second term, God help us.
  6. Gainzo

    Gainzo Rookie

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    Any idea why spending is excessively high? Maybe it has something to do with unfunded wars and bailouts for Company's that couldn't handle being in the free market?
  7. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    Are they not allowed to do with their land and property what they want too? What do corporations do, as they please, which harms this country, without government oversight helping them?

    See in a limited government world, a company which polutes my land, gets sued, and potentially goes out of business.

    In Obama's world, a government agency which costs 2Billion a year is put in place to ensure they approve of the waste and ensure that you can't sue the corporation because all "credible" scientists say its safe and doesn't cause any issues. Now you can't even bring your case before a Judge.

    People... Are you an ANT or an Eagle? Do you need a Nanny your whole life? Os anyone, anymore capable of taking a wee bit of responsiblity for themselves?

    If an "evil" company makes a product you don't agree with, or treats their employees bad, DONT BUY THEIR PRODUCT, DONT WORK FOR THEM.

    Where are all the guns to people's heads that are "forced" to have to deal with all these evil corporations.
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How is regulation stifling the economy? Under Carter we began deregulating, and saw a major recession. Under Reagan we continued the deregulation and things got worse until he started deficit spending and raised taxes. Even then, it ultimately resulted in the Bush I recession. Under Clinton, we restored higher taxes and brought back some regulation, as well a responsible economic policies that reduced the debt. The economy did well. Under Bush II, we perhaps had the smallest amount of regulation since the era that ushered in the Great Depression, and Bush's policies caused our economy to crash. Regulation is simply a tool. It has very little to do with our debt. Our debt is caused by spending and not raising taxes to manage that spending. Deregulation, which we still suffer from, never created jobs. Obama is right that Reagan's trickle down approach was a failure. The fact is that the regulated countries are struggling right now, but they still have the highest standards of living in the world. Can you name a nation that has very little regulation that you think is better than the US or the European countries?

    The headline to the article distorted what Obama said, but the article quotes him accurately and he's right:

    "'[T]here is a certain crowd in Washington who, for the last few decades, have said, let’s respond to this economic challenge with the same old tune. 'The market will take care of everything,' they tell us," said Obama. "If we just cut more regulations and cut more taxes--especially for the wealthy--our economy will grow stronger.

    "Sure, they say, there will be winners and losers," Obama continued. "But if the winners do really well, then jobs and prosperity will eventually trickle down to everybody else. And, they argue, even if prosperity doesn’t trickle down, well, that’s the price of liberty.

    "Now, it’s a simple theory," said Obama. "And we have to admit, it’s one that speaks to our rugged individualism and our healthy skepticism of too much government. That’s in America’s DNA. And that theory fits well on a bumper sticker. But here’s the problem: It doesn’t work. It has never worked.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2011
  9. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    I agree with you more than I disagree...but I have to play devil's advocate here mcgraw...so here goes.

    If corporations don't need to be regulated, why were work conditions so bad in the early 1900's prior to unionization and laws being passed?

    People had the choice to quit...at least on paper they did. But the reality was, they had to provide for their families under torturous conditions. What natural economic force would have corrected this major problem had the gov't not stepped in?
  10. Real World

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    Off the top of my head, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest a number of things like those you mentioned, wars and bailouts, as well as stuff like entitlement programs, over half a trillion on k-12 education, the MIC, a quarter billion for penis pumps, $17 muffins, trillion dollar stimulus packages, farm bills, life long unemployment benefits, Department of A, B, C, D, E, F, G... billions to Pakistan, billions to Israel, billions to uranus... bridges to nowhere, airports without planes, trains, planes, and automobiles, illegal aliens, HUD, prescription drug benefit,Team America World Police, and on and on and on and on....
  11. Gainzo

    Gainzo Rookie

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    No way. GE left a trial of pollution and cancer all over Massachusetts by burying all kinds of hazardous material on their land.

    Not sure how that would happen as the GOP wants major tort reform. Plus the fact that the offending company would continue to pollute as the case makes it through the clogged court system.

    What are you talking about?

    Corporations are NOT people and need to be held accountable.

    Hard to do in reality.

    No guns to our heads but Corporations control just about every retail outlet in the USA.
  12. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    All I heard in your post was:
    "No mater what the government tries to do, it can't control the economy and whatever it does, only marginally manipulates it, while the overall innovation and ingenuity of the American people have far more impact on the economy than any President over the past 30+ years."

    Clinton did nothing to spur the economy, Bill Gates did, Steve Jobs, Lycos, Yahoo, Google, Aol, etc...
  13. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    I hate the word association game, where a term is certified as being either good or evil. The word "regulation" isn't evil. I think there should be an expected level of rules and regs that serve the best interests of the people. By people I mean all parties involved. Be that the government, the business, it's patrons, it's workers, or the overall populace in general. All things being equal, I'd prefer to see fewer regulations than more regulations, but that always depends on where the line is drawn.
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I would add Gainzo's excellent post above that mcgraw seems to think a victorious lawsuit makes up for the lives lost and destroyed because of damage done by dishonest corporations. Those who had deformed babies, who died of cancer, or lost years of their lives because of irresponsible and reckless behavior by corporations do not get justice with money. We are a complex society, and we need regulations to help protect us from that which we cannot possibly know, such as issues related to hazardous waste, dangerous products, corporate shenanigans, and other sophisticated vehicles for increasing short term gain (which can be cashed out and protected) at the expense of long-term losses, especially human losses.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2011
  15. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    Who's fault was that? None of the familes which stayed in Kansas and the mid west working their land and living off their Farms did...

    These companies offered a job, don't blame the opportunity for putting you in a situation where you MUST take a job. No one put a gun to your head. Everyone makes choices, you have 4 kinds before your 24, I bet your going to have a harder life than someone who doesn't.

    No one forced anyone to work in those textile mills. We outlawed Slavery long long time ago.

    If people were emplowered to know they have choices... man what a powerful country we could have. Yet everyone is raised to thnk everyone gets treated fairly, that you can't have any unless you brought some for the whole class.

    Life isn't the school house, you have to work to differentiate yourself... I am better than my peers, I work to b better than them, I work hard to do that.

    You can too.
  16. Gainzo

    Gainzo Rookie

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    Where is your line drawn? I'm pretty sure you like drinking clean water and eating safe food. What do you think of OSHA?
  17. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    I already am better than you at many things...just as you're better than me at many. And?

    You gave me reasons, but no answers to my question. How would work conditions have been corrected by "market forces"?

    Personally, it is my belief that it's a waste of time and egotistical to try to be better than anyone else. All I can do is my best. I could care less what anyone else does.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2011
  18. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    That pollution gets into the ground water, and then polutes others land. That's destruction of private property.


    I'm not backing the GOP in my arguments, I am a RP Republican, a strict constitutionalist, preaching how a strong, empowered American should work.

    Even then, I bet you have a GE washer, Fridge, and Hot Water heater anyways even though you "hate" their polution... Your right that there is no better way to show a company how much you hate their policies by filling your house with their products...


    The FDA has assisted Monsanto in protection against lawsuit form Farmers with their generically modified seeds for years. The FDA does more to protect Big Pharma than it does to keep it in check. Too much content to get into it, you'll need to research it for yourself.


    100% agree. They should not be allowed to harm people, else face the unwavering punishment of the Free Market, extinction.


    Also known as Lazy, and un-passionate about the issues you claim to have issue with. Hard to do in your Reality.


    Stop shopping at big box stores, support your local marts, buy local produce, stop making excuses as to why you have no power over your own life.

    Again, that's my claim in a nutshell. Are "you" capable of leading your own life, or do you need more informed DC beuracrats to make decisions for you.



    Goodness our people sound like we live in Communist Russia... and it's start to look a bit like it around here... Sad state we live in.

    "Yes we can" turned into "We can't and could never" in 3.5 years...
  19. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I hate "Nasty Bosses"
    I hate Management
    I hate "Big Shots"
    I hate "CEO's"
    I Hate "Rich Bastards"

    I am an uneducated ass hole, without all that sh!t I hate my family and myself would be dead, I worked for them.

    MY UNION PROTECTED ME FROM THEM

    THE UNION IS MY LIBERAL SIDE (the rest of liberalism makes me sick)
  20. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    I think RW's point is that at some point, there can be too much gov't. And of course that has to be true, doesn't it?
  21. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    My goal is to provide the best service, and products at the best price I possibly can. I am not talking about individual wealth, as in, my person is better than you.

    Life isn't fair, not everyone gets the same shot.. we don't all get nap times, and the same amount of cookies after recess.

    I answered all your questions.

    If I owned a Factory, and I could only make a profit by putting workers into positions which usually killed them in 20 days ( and we pretend a law suit wouldn't end it right then ) Then if the people refused to work there, I would have to raise my prices to the point where no one would by my products, and therefore go out of business.

    Market Forces will simply close down the Factory.
  22. Gainzo

    Gainzo Rookie

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    Very true. I think you, RW and I have different definitions of what big government/regulations are.

    You made an excellent response to mcgraw. I watched a biography of H.J. Heinz the other day. I think it was on Biography or History Channel. Either way he was the best employer in the early part of the 1900's.

    The biggest thing he ever did was endorse a federal bill that made other food manufacturers adhere to strict standards when it came to food preparation and delivery. Heinz had always done that and he ticked off every other company in the Country.
  23. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    I understood you meant on a business level as no one is "better" than anyone on a human level. At least to the point you and I can't make such a judgement.

    So you think people had the choice to "work the land" or work in factories in the early 1900's? I don't think that's close to the truth mcgraw. Most of the people being abused by corporations were immigrants who didn't have a clue. They came by boat and landed in cities, not the heartland of America where they had the choice to be farmers.

    I think I'll just agree to disagree on this one. But that's what our country is all about. Maybe neither one of us right...possibly the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2011
  24. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    I have done work for HJ Heinz...they're still a great company to work for with high ethics!
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2011
  25. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    And no one in government forced them to be that way! imagine that!
  26. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    That's a 100% true. But do we not still today take advantage of immigrants? Isn't that more an effct of the immigrant being ill prepared to thrive in our society than a lack of government laws and regulations?

    An Immigrant, still see's a wage as a better life than where they came from, and they in turn provided a better life for their family, and their kids went on to lifes which afforded them the ability to not have to work in those conditions.
  27. Gainzo

    Gainzo Rookie

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    And every single Company that provided food to consumers hated him for backing the bill that made food safer for Americans. Imagine that!
  28. Gainzo

    Gainzo Rookie

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    mcgraw: Are fully behind letting private business do whatever they want and if they pollute, make their employees work 12 hours days, and pay them $3 a day, it is up to the people to sue the private business?
  29. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    Fail!

    I'm fully in favor of letting Adults finally act like it and take control of their measly lives. No one is pointing a gun at you demanding you make 3.00 an hour, working 12 hour days.

    Your fantasy world where every one is a Baron of industry looking to kill as many serfs as possible on their way to the top of Capitalism hill.

    People have power, we need to re-awaken that.
  30. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    As long as you're not comparing legal immigrants to ILLEGAL immigrants, you have a point. Illegals of today can't be compared to legal immigrants of the early 1900's.

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