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Thoughts on the roster...

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Sep 6, 2009.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    ... Just got back from Foxwoods, another "grueling" day at the poker table....and I'm trying to get a grasp on the far from final 53 man roster.

    1. I was hoping someone would put together a roster using the basic format that we saw so often in our speculations. Didn't see one so I went to Patriots site and checked out the roster there. As I was looking something popped out that I thought was noteworthy.

    What do all these players have in common?

    Adaleus Thomas, Mike Wright, Pierre Woods, Ryan Wendall, Brandon McGowan, Mike Matthews, Dan Connolly, Ben-Jarvus Green-Ellis, Gary Guyton, Eric Alexander, Chris Hanson. Steven Neal

    Yes that's right....they all came into the league as UDFAs. Think about it. This is one of the most talented 53 man rosters in the the NFL, not a team that's "rebuilding" by any means, yet almost 23% of its roster WEREN'T deemed good enough to be drafted out of college. BTW to BB's credit, 8 of the 12 are home grown UDFAs....and 4 of the 12 are starters, plus Hanson.

    I just thought it was interesting.

    2. I LIKE the trade of Thomas....and I liked Thomas, but he'll do better in another system. The more I think of it, what good is it to have a great pass catching TE in THIS offense. In the spread offense, the WRs are the ones that will catch ball. TEs are for blocking, the GL offense, and safety release patterns. Quite frankly, if I want to send someone down the seam, I'd just as soon it be a WR.

    And don't sleep on Watson....just 3 years ago, he caught 50 balls in just 13 games... but it was in a DIFFERENT offense. Matthews' blocking skills fill a bigger need on the team than than a good pass catching TE (Thomas).

    3. I still don't like the fact that we kept 5 RBs. BTW its the number I don't like, not the 5 guys they kept. Again, I would have rather had a guy like Lenon or Ventrone instead of a 5th RB who will probably be an inactive until an injury occurs

    4. I read somewhere that 9 of the 11 draft picks were kept. WOW, before the season I would have thought that 5 would be stretching it. This COULD be the best draft class since 2003....if not the best in n the BB era....and I'm thinking Nunn comes back to the PS

    5. Very disappointed that Crable was put on IR....again. I was looking forward to watching him develop. I can still picture his pick in the Giant pre season game that year. It was a VERY athletic play. All that promise and nothing to show for it but TWO red shirt years

    6. Hey my "binky" Rob Ninkovich made the roster DESPITE keeping 5 RBs. But if I were Rob, I wouldn't fully unpack just yet because I have a feeling that there is a QB in our future and someone will have to go, and Rob MAY not be the 53rd guy, but he's close. ;)

    7. Good to see that Slater will recover. I fully expected him to wind up on the IR. But he's another guy who just might be warming a roster spot until the Pats look to tweak the over the next few weeks.

    BOTTOM LINE - Good club now...SHOULD get better as the season goes along.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  2. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Obviously, Belichick is looking at the more than 500 players cut in the last 24 hours and seeing where the team cut be upgraded. I see at the least the following positions as potential upgrades.

    QB - We only have 2
    OG/C - I think that we might secure a better backup center than Connolly.
    FB - We don't have one.
    DL/LB - While this is always a possibility, but I think Belichick is all set.
    ST - This is always a possibility.

    ================================================== ================================================== ==
    I would like us to sign a QB, a C/G, and a STer in place of Slater, Connolly and Green-Ellis. I think that we have a very, very strong 50.
    ================================================== ================================================== ==

    QB (2): Brady, Hoyer
    RB (5): Maroney, F. Taylor, Morris, Faulk, Green-Ellis
    WR (6): Moss, Welker, Galloway, Aiken, Edelman, Lewis
    TE (3): Watson, Baker, Matthews
    OL (9): Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur, Connolly, Ohrnberger, Vollmer, Wendell

    DL (7):Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Brace, Pryor, Green, Wright
    DE/OLB (3) : Burgess, Banta-Cain, Ninkovich
    LB (5): Alexander, Guyton, Mayo, Thomas, Woods
    S (5): Meriweather, Sanders, Chung, McGowan, Slater
    CB (5): Bodden, Butler, Springs, Wheatley, Wilhite

    ST (3): Gostkowski, Hanson, Ingram

    PUP: Tate

    IR: Bussey, McKenzie, C. Taylor, Crable

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by mgteich; Today at 01:40 AM
  3. Patspsycho

    Patspsycho Rookie

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    regarding #3, you know at some point RB corp will go down from 5.

    #4, unfortunately, according to the herald, two teams have already inquired about Nunn.
  4. patriot lifer

    patriot lifer Rookie

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    interesting catch on the undrafted free agents we have. I wonder how that compares to other teams.

    and it is amazing that we kept so many rookies with us. i'm sure the average age of the team is still high, but with ole timers like Harrison, Bruschi, and Vrabel gone and with an injection of youth, we aint lookin' so old
  5. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    At this point, I bet the average age is actually pretty low. Replace a few guys in their late 30s with guys in the early 20s, and your average age can drop in a hurry.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  6. Lampshade

    Lampshade Rookie

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    It is interesting.

    Mike Reiss (I think) had the facts on league-wide roster makeups, and UDFAs were, I believe, the 3rd most populous group, trailing only 1st rounders and 2nd rounders.

    I'll try and find the stats.


    edit: actually, I was WAY off. UDFA are far and away the most populous group:

    League averages (Patriots in brackets)
    First round -- 7.9 (12)
    Second round -- 7.0 (5)
    Third round -- 6.5 (7)
    Fourth round -- 6.2 (5)
    Fifth round -- 5.1 (6)
    Sixth round -- 5.0 (5)
    Seventh round -- 5.3 (3)
    Undrafted -- 21.6 (23)

    http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/04/following_up_on_1.html
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  7. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    Thanks MG, THAT's what I was looking for. Still seems a little thin at LB to me, with only 8

    Now that I see it in this format, Ninkovich and Slater could be the odd men out....if new players are added...and we know that they will.

    BTW- lets assume they add a QB, do they take ANOTHER guy from the D, leaving only 24? Does that seem wise: Here a couple of ways they can do it, without losing a defensive player.

    They cold add a QB, THEN move Hoyer to the PS. It will be even LESS likely at team would poach him if he's on the roster for the first game or so. They could decide to go with 8 OLmen, which they've done before.
  8. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I've got to think that RB, OL and WR would each still have one player at risk, likely BJGE, Lewis and Wendell, with Connolly being at risk if another center comes around.
  9. bucky

    bucky Rookie

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    Not sure why people are talking about a vet Center coming in. For the last 3 years the Pats were fine (not great, but good enough) with Yates and Hochstein. Now, both of those guys have been let go, so presumably they've been upgraded. I think we're fine on the OL as long as an OT doesn't get hurt in the first 6 weeks.
  10. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Note the use of the word "if", and the absence of the word "veteran" in my post.
  11. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    OFFENSE
    I agree that we should keep 25 roster spots on the offense. There are several ways to free up a roster spot for a quarterback.
    1) Cut Hoyer as you suggest, and hope that he ends up on the Practice Squad.
    2) Cut or trade a running back. I still think we only need four.
    3) Sign a veteran center/guard and cut both Wendell and Connolly who are inefficient in the use of roster spots. They will both need to be active to backup guard and center instead of the more normal one player to backup both. I am presuming that Ohrnberger will be the inactive backup for most if not all of this season, which is fine.

    DEFENSE
    I'm sure that Belichick will be out looking for an upgrade. However, I'm not sure why Ninkovich should be vulnerable. As you say, we need an additional linebacker if we can find one. Ninkovich took Crable's roster spot. As patchick points out, Ninkovich is a DE/OLB who is solid against the run, a fine complement to Burgess and Banta-Cain. The need is inside. I would like to be able to count on Alexander only on special teams.

    If Belichick finds an inside linebacker, Slater should be the man to go. If a linebacker can't be found, Belichick must make a special teams roster decision. Is it better to have Slater whenever he is ready to help the special teams for the last half of the year and the playoffs or is it better to find a special teams replacement. Ciurciu, Jones, Ventrone and Spann were all deemed expendable. Perhaps Belichick will have second thoughts or find someone else.

  12. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They aren't going to send the kid to the PS now. And he wouldn't make it with Josh and Scott and even Dimitroff sitting out there. He's only the 2nd QB on the roster who remotely knows the offense... Anyone they bring in now will be veteran insurance brought in after week one and looking at several weeks before they can remotely grasp the offense. Which is why it may be Huard or no one. The plan then would be as it was in 2005 - let the vet step in in a pinch and (god forbid) if the need is longer coach the kid up.

    I do agree that the last 3-4 guys on the roster shouldn't look for long term lease residences just yet. BB tends to play situational roster just like he plays situational football.
  13. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    That's an eye opener, and a great find, thanks Lamp. I would have thought that the league average would be lower than 21%. Kind of makes you wonder about the draft when just about every team has 10-12 guys on their roster that 32 teams passed on SEVEN times. :D
  14. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    A.D. Thomas was a 6th.
  15. PYPER

    PYPER Rookie

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    BB is obviously impressed with the kid and makes him our #2 after he played a heck of a game the other night and you guys want to cut him so you can try to "sneak" him on the practice squad???? I think you need to reevaluate your risk/reward formula. The Patriots and Belichick carry far too high of a profile for such a maneuver to work. Especially after the league got to see the kid play and Belichick raised eyebrows by keeping him over KOC and Walter. Hoyer is on the roster to stay.

    In a perfect world we could stash BJGE on the PS but he'd be snapped up in a New York minute. While keeping five is probably overkill in most seasons, when you consider the ages and durability issues of the other four RB's, the decision makes sense.

    I like your idea here. That would be the ideal solution. It's surprising that they got rid of Hochstein for that reason. I'm guessing/hoping that this means Wendell/Connolly are considerably better but it would be preferable if the better of the two could learn to play the other position as well.

    Total bummer about Crable. I agree that Ninko should be safe. I would like to find better ILB depth/Sp Teams contributor than Alexander. As is, it doesn't seem like we have the ILB depth to play 34 for any length of time.


    Kudos for nailing Slater. I haven't been a fan of his but he must have game for BB to keep him, especially considering his injury. I look forward to seeing him make some positive plays for us.....eventually.

    It would seem like he's the 53rd guy right now so his spot on the roster could end up being a temporary one if/when BB adds a veteran QB (Huard or possibly bring back Walter after wk 1). If we need to find a special teams replacement, I hope we pick a guy who can also provide some depth at ILB.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  16. DocE

    DocE Rookie

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    I agree with a lot of your thoughts Ken except with your statement that you'd rather send a WR up the seam as opposed to a TE. The reason it's much better to have TE go up the seam is he is a larger target for the QB and (probably more importantly) much better equipped than a WR to take the shot that is likely going to come from a S. If the Patriots ran Moss up the seam (bad example because he'd 3 guys on him, but bare with me) he probably would not last the season. The good news is that Watson has the best speed of the TE's and (theoretically) was more capable of getting up the seam than Thomas.

    I also like the idea of adding a 270lb blocking TE, hopefully that will help the Patriots convert those 3rd and 1's more consistently than they did in the preseason.
  17. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Yup, a whole 13 picks before Tom Brady.

    4 pro bowlers in the 6th round in 2000, I'd say it was a banner year...
  18. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    With all the talk of the draft, how much time is spent speculating and how much it means to each club, it is revealing to think that 40+% of this roster flew under the radar of the Mel Kypers and the rest of the draft guru's.....
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  19. GullyFoyle

    GullyFoyle Banned

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    Anyone know when the practice squad will be announced?
  20. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Sometime today....I would think late afternoon...early evening...24 hrs AFTER cut down time...
  21. GullyFoyle

    GullyFoyle Banned

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    thanks crossing my fingers for Nunn
  22. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    That 6th round of 2000 was a diamond in the rough...Drafted in that round were...
    [FONT=&quot]Brady, Marc Bulger, Neil Rackers, Paul Edinger, Dhani Jones, Adalius Thomas, Mike Anderson, Matt Bowen[/FONT]
  23. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    2----I think some have mentioned how a tight end is better catching a ball on the seam than a WR..Watson can be good at that and he has speed and size. Not that I would expect him to catch a ton of passes, but he CAN do that. Thomas, for all his supposedly great skills of receiving, has done little but show flashes...just enough to get by. I KNOW he was Young's big target at Texas...BUT he hasn't even come close. I like having a larger tight end for blocking...with he and Baker in the game..it will make it easier for RBs to get in..MORE a DGraham ni the trenches sort of guy...I agree. And Baker does have good hands. Would not be surprised to see a DeVree or other TE on the Practice Squad.
    3----Running backs go down and are filled with bumps and bruises, so having an extra one is quite good..to fill in for whoever of the 4 ahead. The problem is that there HAS to be 8 inactive players...one can add a Ventrone ot a ST player, but who are the 8 going to be? Usually 2 OL, a 3rd Qb if they pick one up, a DL man...and 4 others. Having an extra ST player is fine IF he can get on the field. I'm fine with having a RB inactive each week..some players need to be inactive...ST players can't be.
    4----As many have pointed out...Nunn will NOT make it back to the PSquad..and that is quite sad..I wish him well and I expect one team will pick him up and he will become a tough NFL player..a real surprise having not been invited to camps the year he graduated.
    5----Hopefully he can have impact next year..but I am sort of pessimistic. Quite a disappointment. My only hope is that while he's recovering from these injuries is that he's also becoming more in football shape and strengthening his legs and becoming more into an NFL OLB's body. Hoping....
    6-----I think Ninkovitch is OK..there are other places where players could be cut...so I think he could be vulnerable..but a few down the line. I think with so few ILBs, having Ninkovitch and other to go outside is good as Thomas might be that inside back up player.
    7-----I thought mid afternoon that Slater would make the team. It was also only a bit over a day since the injury occurred so I was thinking that maybe there was a gray area with his injury that possibly they don't know for sure how long he will be out...waiting for more info on that. It is possible...and for that reason, I think he might end up going on IR. So I would say that it is VERY possible.
    --------
    I----I do not think that Hoyer will be cut. No way will he make it to the Practice Squad. O'Connell looked incredibly shaky and had four teams coming after him. Hoyer would have more. Not happening...he's basically taking KO's place on the roster as teh young QB that the team wishes to groom.
    II----I do think a vet quarterback will be brought in. They have a bunch of choices out there, Huard, Griese, Garcia and others. I would not at all be surprise dif in two days another is on the 53.
    III---There offensive line is not set. They have 3 interior line backups and only 1 at tackle..my sense is that either Connolly or Wendell will stick. Both can play C or G, but it seems neither is totally strong at all 3 positions. My guess is that one goes and possibly returns to the Practice Squad and a vet tackle is brought in to back up Light and Kaczur.
    Or..maybe they are really all set with Vollmer and would have a position open.
    IV---This team really is in flux with so many players available so this roster is hardly set in stone. There will be a few changes in the next 4-5 days.
    V----There are a bunch of injuries that are under the radar for the most part that I do believe are influencing the roster shaping to some degree. Morris, Maroney, Edelman, Welker, Connolly, Pryor, Springs, Wheatley...it will be interesting to see who of all of these is not on the field when practices begin this week.
  24. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    It's going to take a LOT MORE than crossed fingers to have him return...unfortunately.
  25. farn

    farn Rookie

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    I have to echo the fears that Hoyer being released is a risk not worth taking. Can't be bringing in new faces - crazy things can happen on opening day. Better to keep him onboard as #2 or at least until a new dude studies the playbook.

    Obviously, BB feels he's as good as the next guy anyways... he dumped Gutz & KOC (who, presumably, knew the sustem) and didn't bother getting anyone in here except for Walter - kinda late.

    Also, coach must value Slater quite a bit. He is hurt, he is a STer by trade - basically - and he still feels like keepign him on the 53 rather than others. Interesting. Unless he's going on IR when they go over the list of new players to be had...
  26. patriotscpfc

    patriotscpfc Rookie

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    I'll cross my nuts then. :)
  27. RussFrancis

    RussFrancis Rookie

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    Slater's going to IR as soon as we find a 3rd QB, imo. No way can we skate by with 2, when one of them is an undrafted rookie FA. Not happening. This is a classic Belichick move. He's just keeping that 53rd roster spot warm with a player who everyone knows is hurt. Slater may be IRed, but I dont think he'll ever play for this team again. He just makes too many mistakes. I like his gunner play, but that's about it with him. Then he falls down untouched and hyperextends his elbow?? Basically hurts himself? Not seeing it with him one bit. Im good with everyone else.
  28. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It makes sense, compared to any individual round. Every year you bring in a slew of UDFAs vs. one 4th, one 5th, etc. Even if only, say a third or a quarter of the UDFAs are as good as drafted players, they're still at a big statistical advantage.

    There's another advantage, too -- unlike draftees, the better UDFAs get to choose their team. They look for the best fit and the best roster opportunity.
  29. vyrago

    vyrago Rookie

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    I'm not sure how or where I would find this information so I'll be lazy and ask you folks before I search again: What is the relative success rate of the major sports (football, baseball, basketball) drafts?

    In other words what percentage of drafted players actually make the team that drafted them?
  30. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do you really think UDFAs get to pick best fit and roster opportunity? They usually sign pretty quickly.

    It's amazing what a crapshoot the draft is, considering all of the 1st day picks who haven't panned out (Brian Brohm cut, 2 2006 2nd round TEs cut, etc.), and then guys like Brady and Adalius Thomas going in the 6th. 230 teams passed on Hoyer and Guyton (including the Patriots).
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