Thoughts on the Patriots prevent OFFENSE

[Ring 6]

Andy, I don't want to argue with you. I have observed you are one not to let things go. The OP asked for what we thought of the prevent offense at the end of the game. I said it stunk (you keep saying everywhere that it worked, but I don't agree. We won the game despite the playcalling, not because of it). I then offered what I thought would have worked better. Of course I can't prove to you that it would have worked, because obviously, it didn't happen. I guess in your mind that means I haven't supported my argument. Whatever. If you think the Pats last two series were good, that's fine. You and I disagree.

I have no porblem letting it go, you keep addressing me. I did not respond to your last post, then you responded to one someone else wrote and talked about me.
If you don't want to explain your position fine. I was simply asking a question to understand why you felt that the answer was that the plays they didnt call would have worked.
It is your choice to answer or not, and it is your choice to 'not let things go' or not, as I had already done so.

 

[The Dynasty]

i think BOB has called 2 great games . just 1-2 play calls in this game down the stretch werent good but he is learning too . So hopefully they correct and improve it next time.

I would agree that he called a very good game again today, with the only exception being the Pats possession with 9 minutes left. The 3 and out and around a minute coming off the clock

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I would agree that he called a very good game again today, with the only exception being the Pats possession with 9 minutes left. The 3 and out and around a minute coming off the clock

What a lot of people don't realize is that on both sides of the ball the overall philosophical decision on how we play situations emanates from the HC. Bill prefers prevent defense down the stretch - and it's tough to rush the passer when you have 6 db's on the field - and he also prefers conservative offense that takes time off the clock and eschews stopping it and shortens the game. The colts didn't have the luxury of making that kind of decision today because they were playing from behind all evening. They also turned the ball over multiple times without forcing a single turnover. We didn't... If in an attempt to keep moving the chains we ended up turning the ball over well...we probably wouldn't have won. Brady didn't have time to go deep in the second half, there was too much pressure on him and he was getting rid of or handing off the ball despite the Colts playing 7 and 8 men up. That said, if Edleman catches a ball that went through his mitts on the 1 or if they call PI on that 3rd down sideline pass to Branch as they surely would have had Wayne been the target...

 

[The Dynasty]

What a lot of people don't realize is that on both sides of the ball the overall philosophical decision on how we play situations emanates from the HC. Bill prefers prevent defense down the stretch - and it's tough to rush the passer when you have 6 db's on the field - and he also prefers conservative offense that takes time off the clock and eschews stopping it and shortens the game. The colts didn't have the luxury of making that kind of decision today because they were playing from behind all evening. They also turned the ball over multiple times without forcing a single turnover. We didn't... If in an attempt to keep moving the chains we ended up turning the ball over well...we probably wouldn't have won. Brady didn't have time to go deep in the second half, there was too much pressure on him and he was getting rid of or handing off the ball despite the Colts playing 7 and 8 men up. That said, if Edleman catches a ball that went through his mitts on the 1 or if they call PI on that 3rd down sideline pass to Branch as they surely would have had Wayne been the target...

I agree with most of your points. You are correct when you say how much BB has an impact on the decisions that are made. He has his way of handling different situations and his philosophy on certain things is not going to change. You are right he loves the prevent defense, and I dont really have a problem with it either. If the tackling was better today I think it would have looked a lot better and people would have liked it. Offensively he does like to take time off the clock is a conservative. I dont have a problem with that either. The issue I had was the throw on 1st down on the drive with 9 minutes left. That just set up that drive for failure, you run on 1st down, take time off the clock and work from there.

The biggest thing in the game today was turnovers. That is where Brady gets Manning. Manning may put up stats, but he also makes a few mistakes. Brady plays a very controlled and well managed game, and just simply doesnt make mistakes. He only has 4 INTs all season. This is where you have to give the edge to Brady over Mannning, Manning may put up stats, but Brady wins games. Brady not turning the ball over was a big part in the Pats winning today.

As for the Edelman drop, that was a tough catch Brady fired that ball and it was a little off. Even if he did make the catch he was going to take a whack, and I dont know if he would have got in the end zone. I agree with you on the no PI call on Branch, if that were Wayne it would have drawn a flag

 

[Deus Irae]

It's amazing to see how many perfect playcallers exist in every team's fan base.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

I would agree that he called a very good game again today, with the only exception being the Pats possession with 9 minutes left. The 3 and out and around a minute coming off the clock

Obviously the easiest play call to make is right after you see the game film, however, I would add to the short, bad play call list: 3rd and 8 (I think), in the third quarter (I think), the play call was 'snap-immediate throw to the WR still behind the LOS'. I think the play gained 1 yard. At that point in the game Brady had been able to complete the 8 yard completion almost at will (what few he did throw). Why would you not give Brady the opportunity to hit a WR in stride over the middle 4 or 5 yards beyond the LOS and let him get the couple extra yards for the first down? Versus hitting a flat footed receiver now 10 yards behind the LOS with a very quick Colt defense? Seems like that was a significantly lower percentage of success play to call.

Notable mention: Edelman at the goal line letting Brady's pass go right through his hands (and a replay showing him letting the same pass, in the same spot, against the Colts last year, go right through his hands). Catch the damn ball! That was 7 that, instead, ended up being 3.

 

[PrairiePat]

It's amazing to see how many perfect playcallers exist in every team's fan base.

In general I thought the offensive game plan was great, but c'mon, I couldn't have been the only one yelling at the play calling when they went 5-wide on first down on that 2nd-last series. That just seems to play to the strength of a defense built around quickness and their 2 DE's pass rushing abilities.

 

[stcjones]

Very good points which I wish BB would answer...makes no sense not to utilize TE more...esp our TE'S...hell throw crumpler the ball once in awhile...guy was a great receiver in atl.

l

It's very frustrating to watch this offense turtle when the game gets close in the 4th qtr. I think playcalling is a major reason why. They get conservative.
In the case of the Colts their D is not very big but they are very quick.
So why is Brady throwing into tight coverage to the smurf receivers when he can be elevating his passes to his tall athletic TE'S??

WHY ARE THE TIGHT ENDS BEING IGNORED WHEN THIS TEAM NEEDS TO MOVE THE CHAINS/KEEP POSSESSION/PUT THE GAME AWAY?

How does 6' 6" Gronk have only 1 catch against a smallish Colt D???
The fast and athletic Aaron Hernandez had 1 catch for the game.
Crump had zero catches.
It's scary but in crunch time this team reverts back to its' old and bad habits, i.e not utilizing the weapons it has at TE.
It's crazy how the Patriots limit themselves on offense at times.
Sooner or later it's going to kill this team in a big game. Let's hope today is a good teaching moment and they figure it out.
If the D is packing it in then elevate the passing game with those big tall TE's.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

My assumption on reading the thread title was that this was going to be a thread on how what won us this year's annual mid-season AFC title game (which is how people have started to look at this,) was the renewed ability to run the ball fairly reliably. With our D still young and growing in their roles, holding the Colts to 28 was in fact difficult, but greatly aided by playing keepaway. If it works for five series and not for seven, that's not a "fail." That's a "crap, that was close."

Manning "playing to win" is this year's slightly less dramatic equivalent of the BB 4th down call last year. He was desperate, he took a chance, and it backfired.

Why was he desperate? He was running out of time. Even if the Colts did storm back to get two touchdowns in three minutes prior to that point.

Why was he running out of time? We have rediscovered ball control.

I like how the D is developing. That's how you get to be a very good D - start out with playmaking when it counts, then clean up what isn't working and learn the fine points and the game's pace as you go.

I like that we got a little pressure. I like that Manning was uncharacteristically rattled at times. I especially like what happens to Manning when he is out of his comfort zone - e.g., when he and his receiver read the coverage differently.

Every play, every series, even every quarter isn't going to be full of win. This one was just full of win enough.

We need to get used to something: When Manning is on, he will make your defense look inept. He had a run there where he was carving us up, playing up-tempo (a Colts trademark,) pounding in that old deja vu feeling.

But just as all our jaws dropped against the 07 Giants, when it didn't just magically work our way, something tells me some Colts fans' jaws hit the floor, given their team's performance against the Pats for the last few years.

Two big improvements: we got some pressure on Manning, and we had the ground game to keep him off the field for good stretches.

W/the Colts, it's not a matter of whether they're going to sometimes march down the field in five plays or whatever. It's a matter of how many times, and how many you can answer with. Also seems like w/his tempo, you throw disguised defensive looks at him as much as possible, and when he adjusts, you have to cycle through new ones. Eventually you have periods where he is reading you right.

Makes you wonder whether there was something held in reserve to get Cunningham in his face that last play -- or whether that's just attribution error on my part.

[Shrug.] Either way - play keepaway, beat Manning. Did it Sunday.

 

[RhodyPatriot]

........Why was he desperate? He was running out of time. Even if the Colts did storm back to get two touchdowns in three minutes prior to that point.....Why was he running out of time? We have rediscovered ball control.

Manning was already in FG territory for the tie and had enough time on the clock and enough timeouts left to score a TD to win that game.
Manning was in that position because this offense could not make one freakin' 1st down to put the game away.
It was 2009 deja vu all over again.
The Patriots will not get away with this in the playoffs.

This Patriot defense is going to be REALLY good in a year or two but right now they're learning on the job and they're vunerable. Is it too much to ask that this offense simply make a 1st down and finish out the game??
Makes absolutely no sense for the Patriots not to utilize their size advantage over the Colt D and throw to the TE's. It wasn't the Colts who were stopping the Patriots O it was the Patriots themselves.

BTW I call it the Patriots "prevent offense" because that offensive gameplan/mindset we saw in the 4th qtr (same we saw last year) prevents the Patriots from closing out games. It's a killer come playoff time if they don't change their thought process.

 

[WelshPat]

In general I thought the offensive game plan was great, but c'mon, I couldn't have been the only one yelling at the play calling when they went 5-wide on first down on that 2nd-last series. That just seems to play to the strength of a defense built around quickness and their 2 DE's pass rushing abilities.

I agree with this, even more so with how our running game was working so well and we had the lead.

Other than that I think he called a great game.

 

[The Dynasty]

Obviously the easiest play call to make is right after you see the game film, however, I would add to the short, bad play call list: 3rd and 8 (I think), in the third quarter (I think), the play call was 'snap-immediate throw to the WR still behind the LOS'. I think the play gained 1 yard. At that point in the game Brady had been able to complete the 8 yard completion almost at will (what few he did throw). Why would you not give Brady the opportunity to hit a WR in stride over the middle 4 or 5 yards beyond the LOS and let him get the couple extra yards for the first down? Versus hitting a flat footed receiver now 10 yards behind the LOS with a very quick Colt defense? Seems like that was a significantly lower percentage of success play to call.

Notable mention: Edelman at the goal line letting Brady's pass go right through his hands (and a replay showing him letting the same pass, in the same spot, against the Colts last year, go right through his hands). Catch the damn ball! That was 7 that, instead, ended up being 3.

The pass call on 1st down of the series that started with around 9 minutes left is not easier to call after looking at game film. That play should be a run no matter what. Your job what that possession is to take time off the clock, an incomplete pass on first down, stopping the clock just sets that possession up for failure.

I do agree that the play in the 3rd quarter you are referring to was a terrible call as well. As a whole I thought BOB called another great game, it was a good game plan and was executed fairly well. It was a good in game adjustment to make the running game more of an emphasis in the 2nd half to take take off the clock and win the time of possession game.

As for the Edelman drop, I dont know if you can get on him for that. Brady fired that ball and when you fire the ball from a short distance you have to be perfectly accurate. Even Simms picked up on that during the game. Even if Edelman caught the ball, he would have caught it at around the 3 and was going to take a whack. I dont even think he would have got into the end zone.

 

[ATippett56]

As for the Edelman drop, I dont know if you can get on him for that. Brady fired that ball and when you fire the ball from a short distance you have to be perfectly accurate. Even Simms picked up on that during the game. Even if Edelman caught the ball, he would have caught it at around the 3 and was going to take a whack. I dont even think he would have got into the end zone.

Edelman should have caught that ball regardless of whether he was at the two or three yard line. The football literally went right through his hands. Also for every completed pass, valuable time expires off the game clock.

 

[The Dynasty]

Edelman should have caught that ball regardless of whether he was at the two or three yard line. The football literally went right through his hands. Also for every completed pass, valuable time expires off the game clock.

Being only a second year guy in the league, and 2nd year total as a WR its tough to ask him to make a catch like that. Welker probably would have made it because of his experience in the league and catching passes all his life. Edelman has had a tough year so far, I am wondering if an injury has something to do with it

 

[RhodyPatriot]

Edelman should have caught that ball regardless of whether he was at the two or three yard line. The football literally went right through his hands. Also for every completed pass, valuable time expires off the game clock.

Phil Sims had it right. No receiver (especialy one who's coming in cold from the bench) is making a hands-only catch of a ball that's thrown on a straight line and going 100 MPH. A pass like that needs to be in the receivers body.
That one's on Tom.

 

[Synovia]

In the 4th quarter our opponents were, in order:
1) The clock
2) The Colts

By using the run, we shortened the 4th quarter. We shortened it enough that the Colts were frenetically trying to score and had 25 seconds left when they failed.
If we threw the ball and had incompletions, the game is lengthened, what you do not want when you are ahead.
IT WORKED

Are you high Andy?

The Patriots two possesions in the 4th quarter ran off a total of 2:58.

It didn't work. The Colts had the ball in range for a <40yd field goal to tie the game. The only reason that Pats won that game was that there was enough time left on the clock that the Colts had time to take shots at the endzone.

 

[Synovia]

The pass call on 1st down of the series that started with around 9 minutes left is not easier to call after looking at game film. That play should be a run no matter what. Your job what that possession is to take time off the clock, an incomplete pass on first down, stopping the clock just sets that possession up for failure.

No, your job is to get first downs. Successfull drives take huge chunks of time off the clock. 3 and outs (even three running plays) do not.

 

[Synovia]

Edelman should have caught that ball regardless of whether he was at the two or three yard line. The football literally went right through his hands. Also for every completed pass, valuable time expires off the game clock.

That ball was poorly thrown. You can't throw a ball behind and high in that situation.

 

[upstater1]

It's amazing to see how many perfect playcallers exist in every team's fan base.

I was with a roomful of Patriots fans. Before that key first down happened, everyone said the same thing. I know, shotgun, spread... stupid.

It doesn't take a brainiac to figure out why that playcall is wrong.

Why forget play-action there if you want to pass?

 

[upstater1]

The reason for the shotgun on first down on the last drive was because we ran it three times in the red zone the drive before and failed to convert that possession into a touchdown. The next drive, O'Brien was looking at a red-hot Brady who had been performing surgery on the Colts defense throughout the entire game and decided to put it in his hands. As it stands, it didn't work out too well.

By the way, I was the guy in the chat begging the team to keep running the ball throughout the entire game. With that in mind, it's not hard to see why O'Brien called what he did, when he did.

You can throw after getting the ball from under center. It's not forbidden. You can even call play action.