Thomas and Springs

Discussion in ' - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mgteich, Dec 11, 2009.

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  1. mgteich

    mgteich Veteran Supporter

    The choice is Belichick's. He needs no reason to have both Thomas and Springs inactive for the rest of the year. Belichick makes these personnel choices and he is responsible for the consequences as he is for all the rest of the positive and negative decisions made.

    We will never know what really happens in the locker room. In any case, if Belichick decides that the best choice to maximize the chances of the playoffs and the Super Bowl is to bench these guys, then that's fine with me. Belichick is the boss.

    Of course, that is not what we have all been discussing. We have been discussing our personal feelings about the situation and what we think should be done. My PERSONAL opinion is that we should try to maximize the effectiveness of all assets on the team. GIVEN WHAT LITTLE WE KNOW, I think that that making an example of Thomas and Springs gives wrong message to current and future players. BUT, as may have been the case with Seymour, there may much more involve than we know. Also, I don't think that this situation is similar to some flunkie being late for work at the office.

    Belichick's job and the player's job is to win football games, get intoi the playoffs and to sell tickets. 53 perfect attendence records at practice, never questioning any management statement and never publicly stating anything negative about any management presonnel may be really important for some. I don't think that this is the apprpriate way to run a football team. If you all think that the team was run that way in the 2001-2004 seasons, think again.
  2. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    huh? before the AD drama AD was not being utilized. In fact he fell behind TBC and Burgess. It has to make one wonder why this happened? Has Springs really been productive this season? I think he's looked pretty subpar.

    So I'd have to wonder if these assets weren't utilized at the beginning of the season before this drama why would they now?
  3. It really doesn't matter what happens with Thomas because he's been a bust and the Pats defense is what it is - mediocre at best. If a new CBA is in place, the Pats will be able to rebuild their LB's with plenty of young players ready to hit FA.
  4. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! Supporter Supporter

    #12 Jersey

    Pretty much- re: the debates that we were having going into the season, I'll readily admit that you were totally right in hindsight. I thought a pass rush consisting of Adalius, Woods, Seymour, and TBC could get it done. On one hand, the Seymour trade changed my outlook considerably, but OTOH you were pretty much right on about Woods and Adalius, and I was way off.
  5. Aßßynormal

    Aßßynormal Supporter Supporter


    This is different, there is a marked lack of production and, at least to a surface observer, a lack of 'Team' attitude. BB is probably going to be able to re-establish control and re-focus his team. This will be in spite of deliberate dissent ....... something I haven't seen since Terry Glenn. The 2003 Milloy situation (lasted about 9 days) and to a lessor extent the 2002 Steve Martin situation were difficult problems. Both were dealt with. This situation has two malcontents who can't be cut and are both deliberate cancers. Whereas, the Milloy situation, was a 'TEAM' anger situation (the entire team was angry about Milloy) that dissipated after the Buffalo game and did no harm to our Ring run.

    We do have some leverage on both players, we could inform them (through channels) that they won't be cut until after the April draft if they don't agree to 'going home'. That'll cost them some bucks ..... although, I'd find a way to dump Springs, since he'd have little value (I think).

    It may turn out that this 'drama' will help us re-focus faster and better ........... as long as we get rid of AD quickly.

    We've won a lot and been in contention continously with the way our team runs it's business.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  6. MassPats38

    MassPats38 Supporter Supporter

    #87 Jersey

    If Springs and Thomas have been invisible this season because Belichick is playing out some personal power play when those two are the best players for the position and would do the most to improve the defense, then Belichick is no longer fit to coach the Patriots. In short, the suggestion is Belichick would lose games to pay players back who crossed him in some way. Under that theory, Belichick would sink the team and himself out of ego to get back and Thomas and Springs. That would be flat out crazy.

    If Springs and Thomas are invisible because they lack the drive, determination or aptitude to outplay other players at their position, then they represent no more than back-ups and really are not a loss if benched or cut. If they are making noise that distracts the team and do not bring an otherwise unavailable skill set to the team, I do not see how making them an example sends a bad message. The successful Patriots have stood for the concept that nobody is greater than the team. If either wants to question that concept, then lose them or lose the organizational concept that his always led this team to successful seasons.

    This back and forth on the tardiness issue misses the mark. Of course nobody knows what happened to Thomas. He may have been buried by some rogue avalanche that dropped 4 tons of snow on his car, the first incident of its kind since 1645. Maybe the air temperature dropped to such an extent that the fuel lines froze due to some unforeseen weather anomaly. Maybe there was a 15 car pileup that the media has been unable to identify in the short route he had to travel to get to the stadium. As an alternative to those possibilities, perhaps Thomas, despite Belichick's express warning two days prior, cut his departure time to the razor's edge given the distance he had to travel, noticed the weather, and found himself in traffic. Maybe he called to say he was late when he found himself in traffic, and Belichick took exception to the fact that the order to show up early ready to work after bad losses was disregarded by Thomas and others.

    In any case, under basic management theory, if people like their job, and are enthusiastic about their job, and want to succeed, they get to work early and do the extra things necessary to succeed. It is not as much a tardiness issue as it is people exhibiting the poor attitude reflected in one who wanders into a meeting after it starts because the information disseminated in that meeting is viewed to be of little importance and thus not worth getting up at a sufficiently early hour to attend the entire meeting. If you are planning on showing up early, as Bruschi noted in his chat session, then the odds of showing up late are slight (not impossible, but at least improbable). If you want to win games, that is the attitude you bring to the table. It takes 2 minutes to check in a region known for weather - Thomas didn't. The radio offers regular traffic reports detailing accidents. For the amount he is paid and the expectations placed on those in professional sports, it is ridiculous to claim "I didn't know it would snow" when those in New England, and he is not new to the area, expect snow from November on.

    These players are not Joe Blow corporate guy, or a cashier, or an attendant at the Gas 'n Sip that is required to work 40 hour weeks 52 weeks a year. Any "late due to weather" excuse probably works there. These guys have intense schedules all of six months a year over the 6 or so year average career of an NFL player, with every week representing a new team and all the planning that goes into a game. If they don't show up, the team isn't present and all scheduled events slide or are less than successful.

    The simple question is if there was a million dollars waiting for you at a destination at a certain time, could you guarantee you would make it to that destination on time? I suspect most would find a way, through proper planning and execution of that plan. Thus, if you don't make it on time, the question becomes whether what is waiting at that destination matters to you. That would be my concern in the case of Thomas and Springs, and if winning doesn't matter to them, they do not matter to this team. If that is the case, and only those on the team really know, burn them down and bag the ashes. I wouldn't feel a bit sorry for them.

    The defense has not performed well, has in fact been embarrassed recently, and for the competitive soul that would appear to light a fire under the members of that unit. Every great player in football, baseball and basketball exhibits the same basic quality: do more than the paycheck requires, put in more than the minimum time to prepare. That is the root of the problem with Thomas right now, if he in fact has no legitimate excuse other than there was traffic.
  7. mgteich

    mgteich Veteran Supporter

    We have a Super Bowl to try to win. It makes little sense to me to bench backups because they have lost their jobs as starters and don't have the appropriate attitude. We need backups. It is fine to start Ninkovich at OLB if Ninkovich really has more to offer at this point than AD. But even if this is the case, Thomas should be here in case of injury during the game. After all, Ninkovich has indeed been injured. We have the 53 that we have.

    The bottom line to me is that we need to use the assets we have. The time to get rid of non-performers is in the offseason, unless these players are less valuable than any of the active players, in ehich case they should be inactive for the week. Planning to have them go home or to announce that they are inactive for the year is a likely violation of the CBA. More importantly, it is a misuse of resources.

  8. MassPats38

    MassPats38 Supporter Supporter

    #87 Jersey

    Your conclusion makes sense if they are "assets". Having watched the T.O. show in Dallas and Philadelphia, if your team has individuals who are divisive and distracting, then they are not assets. Football is a team sport and thus the components have to work together to win games. If that player is intractable and cannot be made an asset, I am not sure what you are proposing. I agree if he can be used, obviously don't get rid of him. And I also agree the offseason is the time to lose players, but if a situation arises during the season, you do not have the luxury. If a player is a problem now, you weigh the pros and cons of keeping the player on the team and act in the team's best interests. Without knowing all the facts, there is no way to make an educated opinion as to what represents the best approach at this point. My preference is obviously Springs and Thomas rejoin the fold and contribute. They have the skills as indicated by the fact their names are on the roster. Hopefully, they have the attitude to go with the skills if attitude is a problem right now.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  9. mgteich

    mgteich Veteran Supporter

    I know folks think that the situation with Thomas and Springs is the same as TO. First, I don't think Andy Reid handled the sitaution at all wellw with To, but that was long ago. In any case, the situation is not at all the same. Perhaps Moss should be compared to TO. I think TO would have been a star for us as Moss has been if the timing had been right to bring in TO instead of Moss.

    Obviously, if Belichick and his staff are incapable of making Thomas or Springs an asset, then they should be benched. Just BTW, I think that BOTH Thomas and Springs have been assets, overpaid assets, but assets nonetheless. Would we be so pi$$ed off if they were being paid vet minimums and were expected to be backup OLB and #5 corner? Of course not! The real issue is that we are overpaying.

    Would we really been better off with Alexander playing in the place of Thomas when Ninkovich was injured? Thomas isn't worth the $5M a year he was worth before his injuries. His attitude sucks. But he has been better than the alternative.

    Similarly for Springs. He played OK for the start of the year. Eventually Butler passed him in the depth chart, and also Springs was injured. Now, Springs probably should be inactive. As he is now, and coming back from his injury, he is definite behind Bodden, Wilhite and Butler in the depth chart at corner. He may be ahead of Wheatley as a corner, but Wheatley should indeed be active as the 4th corner because of his value on special teams.
    Many posters have said that they simply are being paid too much and not performing as well as they should be. And therefore, since they are not as good as they should be, being late and making a statement to the press is sufficient to be benched for the year.

  10. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae Retired Jersey Club Supporter

    Disable Jersey

    Seymour makes a world of difference to how teams block the Patriots' pass rush. His presence would likely have made this team significantly better rushing the passer, because Seymour does something that a lot of people have been ignoring: He collapses the pocket. For the most part, the current defensive line pass rushers couldn't do that if they were armed with shotguns.
  11. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 In the Starting Line-Up

    spring dose not have much to be mad about he is not playing cause he can't play any more he is done and has been done for a few years now

    AD is mad cause he was not being used as a pass rusher and BB sit him out for a game

    and i can under stand him being mad cause he got sent home for being 9 min late in snow storm and BB wants to make him the fall guy when it was has call to not take the FG that lost this game and 4th and 2 lost the colts game

    but i can't fell to bad for AD cause he is makeing 7 million this year and he is the only big FA signing by the pats in the last 5 or 6 years so every one is going to be pointing at him to make plays and he is not doing it

    i dont think BB will cut them befor the season is over but i do think both will be goin after this year
  12. MassPats38

    MassPats38 Supporter Supporter

    #87 Jersey

    The TO reference was a "what if" in the above post. That is an aggravated case, and I do not see these two as representing the same scenario (To be honest, I have no clue what Springs' issue is as it sounds like speculation. I thought he was injured.). As far as salaries, who cares? If they underperform and are not damaging the team's chances for success by disrupting the team unity, then that is a roster issue properly dealt with next year.

    So much of this game is emotion. Fired up players simply perform better. Players who are disenchanted or uninspired play flat and lose games they should win. No names can win with the right attitude, if 2001 teaches us anything. If any player damages that mindset and damages the unit on the field, he needs to go. I don't care if he is number 1 or 53 on the roster, that presence does more harm than good and needs to be excised.

    Football is not a team for free spirits with their own notion for how an organization should be run, which is why Thomas was wrong to make public statements against the organization. He is no coach, whether he believes that fact or not. Should he be kicked off the team for doing so? Not if the problem is addressed and does not present an ongoing issue that detrimentally affects the team.

    Everything in this discussion represents a degree of conjecture because you do not know the full story, and likely never will given the way team business is conducted. Fans are ticked off because Thomas appears to be some angry juvenile who appears not to take accountability for his actions. He further appears to be the loudest member of the team, with a level of performance this season that does not justify that spotlight. Is it all his fault? Again, we may never know that for sure.
  13. supafly

    supafly Supporter Supporter

    #32 Jersey

    I think the lack of an effective pass rush is absolutely due to the Seymour factor--specifically, like you said, he simply collapses the pocket with ease. Even more amazing is that he did it while usually being doubled. This would've helped out too, as it would've created numeric mismatches that just don't seem to be the same when they double Wilfork. I am all for the 'future competitiveness' of the team, but I think the dropoff is more than they envisioned. Of course, my opinion will always be biased because I thought Seymour was the most talented and versatile player on defense, while the majority feel it's Big Vince. That's a whole other thread to highjack.;)

    As far as BradyFTW's comment, I think a lot of us felt we were alright with the LB's, and you would've been quite correct had we kept Seymour. Surely any perceived problem would've been masked a lot better with him, no doubt. At any rate, that was a class post, as it takes a good guy to admit he wasn't right about something, etc.
  14. mgteich

    mgteich Veteran Supporter

    I am not sure what Springs has done, other than to possibly agree that Thomas isn't being treated very reasonably. Wilhite won the starting job from him. After he came back, Springs couldn't beat out Butler for the job as #3 corner. Wheatley is better on special teams, the key being active as the #4 corner position.

    So, you're right, Springs has nothing to complain about in his being inactive. As is the case with any veteran, he is frustrated with the situation the patriots are in and isn't handling it very well.

    It has to be frustrating for Thomas to see Burgess perform as he has, and be able to do anything about it.
    It has to be frustrating for Springs to be inactive and not be able to try to help right the ship.

    In the end, they cannot help the offense score points in the second half and be more efficient in the red zone, but that is another series of issues.

    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  15. Thanks for the love and give you much respect for remembering our clash in the off season. However, I just want to point out I never said anything bad about Thomas other than how I'd like him rushing the passer more. I look at the his late season run at OLB in '07 all the way to his monster game in the super bowl and thought that the Pats found his role. I guess I was wrong about him because he's been terrible since. But yeah, Woods never had a chance in my eyes. The starting job was there for him to lose and he lost it.

    I know I've been a nuisance to some people on this board but it looks as though I was right along with State, Tripplecamp, Captain Stone, Mayoclinic and others regarding their LB's and the pass rush. People point to '07 with them having plenty of sacks but that season was flawed because they were up by 20 points by the end of the 1st quarter (Don't even argue with me Deus).

    If it's any consolation, I think the Pats are actually overachieving and playing well considering what they have. The Seymour move really hurt and felt that was a stupid trade. Of course two years from now it feel like a good trade because the Pats will have an extra 1st round pick. However, we'll then look back and think "they sure could've used him in that '09 season". The guy had 8 sacks which is really impressive considering the Pats didn't have anybody off the edge scarring opposing teams. That whole trade was bizarre and disappointing.

    The bright side is that if this off season gets a new CBA in place, the Pats can potentially add some talented FA LB's in 2010. If the Pats want to ever rebuild this defense, this is the year to do it.

    LB's I expect the Pats to go after if a new CBA is in place:
    - Shawne Merriman - If the money is right, teams will take a chance. In addition, it takes 2 years to fully recover from an ACL injury. Could be the next Rodney Harrison for the Pats.
    - Elvis Dumervil - I'd keep a close eye on him.
    - Mark Anderson - too light to play DE but could make the transition to OLB. A lot of people on this board were high on him when he entered the draft.
    - Chris Gocong - decent LB who should be the back up option if the Pats miss out on Merriman and Dumervill.

    - Kirk Morrison - tackling machine. He'd fit in right next to Mayo.
    - DeMeco Ryans - Another ILB the Pats should consider if they miss out on Morrison or vice versa.
    - Barrett Ruud - Tackling machine and some people think he's the best LB in coverage in the NFL.
    - Karlos Dansby - Many people on this board were dissapointed when the Pats passed on him and took Ben Watson. Could these fans finally get their wish?
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  16. Fencer

    Fencer Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    #12 Jersey

    AD made some good plays fairly recently, based on understanding his assignments and sticking to them. He also hasn't said anything all THAT bad. On some non-trivial levels, he's stayed professional and engaged.

    I wouldn't be at all surprised to seem him active again before the season is out.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  17. MaxVonDoom

    MaxVonDoom Banned

    The problem with Adalius and Springs and why some of us are hating them is not because they are overpaid. Its the attitude. The unPatriotic chirpiness. Thats why I hated Seymour not because of his underproduction but because of his smart ass mouth
  18. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah Supporter Supporter

    Disable Jersey

    Problem is...we don't have enough detailed info to know how these 2 guys really interact with the other players. Assuming that they've just got a negative outlook on the team and coach (bad as that is) it's best for the team that they remain to provide depth in the war of attrition that is the NFL season and hopefully post season. BB always says he's simply doing what's best for the team.

    Yes, it's possible that players could become SO disruptive that their very presence could be a detriment to the game but we don't have that level of visibility to know if that's the case. As MassPat said previously, if these guys were sidelined because of a personal vendetta by BB, then de facto he's no longer suitable as the HC of the Patriots. I seriously doubt that it's a personal vendetta from BB.
  19. Wretch

    Wretch On the Game Day Roster

    Seymour is still a top 10 DL, but regardless of his impact or the loss of his impact because of the trade. Neither Burgess nor AD have been winning 1 on 1 match ups with OL.
  20. mgteich

    mgteich Veteran Supporter

    And everyone has every right to judge folks on their smarta$$ comments more than on of their contributions to the team.

    I do believe that Belichick has been extemely sensitive to player comments since he last led the team to a Super Bowl win. The bottom lien for me is that this is not a better team with Seymour and won't be a better team if we bench Thomas. Belichick used to not care what anyone said. What a difference in attitude from the Super Bowl years to the rebuilding years! belichick is human. He now cares what others say.

    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
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