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This should piss off every American!

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by KDPPatsfan85, May 9, 2012.

  1. KDPPatsfan85

    KDPPatsfan85 In the Starting Line-Up

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    #24 Jersey

  2. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sounds like if this guy's research/analysis is to be believed, you would need to make big noise about fixing our infrastructure (roads) outside of the gasoline tax, before we got the really high-mileage vehicles on the road.

    Everybody but shut-ins use the roads. Would you prefer to convert the gasoline tax to a general roads levy on the income tax? If this guy's analysis is the only problem, it seems like you actually have a "fiefdom" evolved over maintenance of the roads that is at odds with the objective of higher mileage cars. (It sounds like the second issue -- measurement of pollutants per gallon vs. pollutants per mile -- is treated as an excuse, according to this guy, rather than the heart of the issue.)
     
  3. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    Why the hell can't the "highway tax" be based on mileage per car on an annual basis? Whenever you get a safety inspection, you pay the tax or get a bill with quarterly or monthly payments or have it figured into your income tax (yes, loopholes abound)...but point is, why cant the funding foir roads be more flexible? Are we idiots?

    Also, there's a missing component which is the 400 lb gorilla sitting on the sofa: Oil companies like it when we buy gasoline. They want to sell more- not less- gasoline. They also want us to take longer trips, and what vehicle will you be driving to the beach in- The tiny, cramped VW or the massive, luxurious, spaceous, leather seats with 4 DVD screens Yukon?

    Maybe we are idiots.
     
  4. Drewski

    Drewski In the Starting Line-Up

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    BINGO Wista!!

    From the top (corps/pols) on down (us minions as a whole).

    A few years back, when gas prices were going crazy (07-08 ish??) I was in the Shell Gas Station in Foxboro (140 and 95) and was in line waiting to buy a pack of smokes. In line ahead of me was a woman, nicely dressed, jewelry to the nines etc etc on her cellphone. When it was her turn in line she said "hold on" to the person on the call and proceeded to rip into the cashier about their gas prices.

    "you guys are effing criminals...this is stealing..." etc etc. Was pretty rude and way over the top dramatic about it.

    I guess the kid had had enough and asked her what gas pump her car was parked at....she id'd the pump number.....with her shiny black Hummer H2 parked at it fully fueled.

    She may have been upset she was paying $4 bucks a gallon to fill up her 9-10mpg hummmmah; which she had all the choice in the world to buy.....but I do know the gas companies were pleased with that choice.
     
  5. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand In the Starting Line-Up

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    #37 Jersey

    My first car was a '79 Plymouth horizon. It got about 35 mpg. I have a 2011 ford focus for a work car that gets about the same. I can't believe we haven't come further in 30+ years.

    I've always wondered if auto makers got kick backs from oil companies.
     
  6. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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    this kind of crap exists all across product lines.....you go to other countries, all models are available with smaller engines than here.....you can get a mercedes benz E240 (E class model with the base C class engine) ... can't get it here
     
  7. Drewski

    Drewski In the Starting Line-Up

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    That is truly a sad statement...

    But if that is all "we" demand from our government and companies producing vehicles, then we get what we deserve.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2012
  8. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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    go find a horizon or an omni and park your fusion next to it. then ask if you can take it for a ride and tell me we haven't come further.


    the worst thing that happened to the car industry was the oil glut of the late 80's and early 90's.

    Gasoline Price History

    adjusted for inflation, gas is no more expensive now than it was 30 years ago.

    the fact is that gas prices are manipulated far beyond the notion of what vehicles we drive. there are cars available that have plenty of space and get in the 40's for MPG's and as an expense, that's pretty damned good. and don't compare a horizon to a fusion. you should compare a horizon to a focus or something along those lines
     
  9. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    I think the information in this thread alone should answer your question...that is if you don't know already.
     
  10. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand In the Starting Line-Up

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    #37 Jersey

    I did say Focus, not Fusion. :bricks:

    Yeah the FOCUS is more aerodynamic, so it should far surpass the Horizon.

    You missed the whole point.

    I got my license in 1988 gas was about .90-$1, it's 3.5x that now far more than inflation.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2012
  11. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Pro Bowl Player

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  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm surprised a conservative would care about this, given their silence when it came to Rush Limbaugh and other conservative nonstop attacks on the American-made Chevy Volt, which for short distances (~35 miles) does not use gas at all, making it very economical as a city car.

    Given the right-wing paranoia about everything possible, I did a little research and came across this, which seems to offer a rational explanation. But, nonetheless, the righties are nuts and are probably arming themselves against the government conspiracy even as I type this.

    Debunked: High-Mileage Vehicles Not Blocked from US Market
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2012
  13. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I believe taxing per mile driven, as opposed to gallon consumed, penalizes people who commute, and makes fuel efficient vehicles less appealing.

    Why is it that big oil is crucified for rigging the system, yet as we see in the an early post in this thread, the government stands to lose the most from lowered consumption. The more we use the more it makes, the less we use, the less it makes. Hmmm...

    The problem with electric cars, among other things, is electricity production. Nevermind the issues with keeping a charge, charging up, range, additional passengers, using the heater, air conditioning, etc. How are we going to generate all that additional electricity? We despise coal, and no one wants a nuke plant in their back yard. More importantly, could the grid even handle the additional juice?

    Anyone remember these little bastards? I so wanted one when I was in HS, and about to get my license. Instead I ended up with an '84 Buick Skyhawk. What a hunk of $%$^ that thing was. I use to drive around with all kinds of oils and fluids in my back seat and trunk, cuz u never knew when you might spring a leak. That car reminds me of the scene in Gung Ho where the two japs...anese, ahem, japanese guys touch the toy model of a US car, and utter "ah-metiken cah...hahahaha" as the wheel falls off. Anyhow...

    57 mpg? That's so 20 years ago

    Want to drive a cheap car that gets eye-popping mileage? In 1987 you could - and it wasn't even a hybrid.

    December 20 2007: 1:13 PM EST

    [​IMG]
    1987 Honda Civic CRX HF



    NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Car makers are confident they can meet new government rules calling for a national fleet average of 35 miles per gallon. But it will take a big technological push, they say.

    You might wonder why, since twenty years ago the car that got the best mileage in the nation was a real techno-wimp compared to what's on the road today. It wasn't even a hybrid. But it got better fuel economy than any car sold now - even the Toyota Prius.

    Looking back at the 1987 Honda Civic CRX shows us why cars use so much more gas today and about the trade-offs we've had to make.



    Twenty-year-old Civics got 57 miles per gallon - Dec. 19, 2007
     
  14. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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  15. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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  16. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    Nothing...never mind.:(
     
  17. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    While I most CERTAINLY believe corruption and profit incentive is at the core of our piss-poor fuel efficiency to date... The assertion that "there's plenty of oil" and "we need fuel efficiency" are two that don't really jibe.

    I wish the "burn everything" party would pick an argument and stick with it.
     
  18. Why?PJ

    Why?PJ On the Game Day Roster

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    um....84 mpg in US model car in USA.

    There are many routes to outstanding fuel efficiency, but it's often diesel that's chosen to demonstrate the highest mpg numbers and longest distances.

    Mileage experts Helen and John Taylor achieved both, to become the world record holders for the longest distance driven on one tank of fuel, using a Volkswagen Passat TDI.

    In driving from Houston, Texas to Sterling, Virginia, the Taylors drove 1,626 miles on a single 19.322 gallon fill of clean diesel. That equates to an average economy figure of 84.1 miles per gallon.

    The Taylors were determined to make it a proper test too, rather than making it too easy. To that end, all the driving was done during the day in normal traffic conditions, rather than at night. The car was completely standard--a 140hp, 2.0-liter TDI, with a six-speed manual transmission--with 120 pounds of luggage in the trunk. The Taylors took turns at driving, and drove no more than 14 hours per day.....

    btw the government is always the enemy. Always.

    And most of the people running the car industry are pretty clueless. But in their defense they generally need 2 years or more to bring a brand new model to market, and that generally goes all into compliance with regulations. So it is the government again.

    Most of the problems in this country come down to the government getting in the way.
     
  19. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    RW, I believe there are weight trade-offs having to do w/safety since then, but more than that -- and you'd have to check me on this -- I believe there's a difference in how they measure fuel efficiency (or it might be so simple is now you have to actually have it tested under controlled conditions, rather than a "take your word for it" regime)

    But that's going from vague impressions; I might be wrong. I do remember the 80s when every car had higher MPG than the last and I remember being surprised when people were bragging about their 32 MPG highway in the last decade, b/c I clearly remember cars that got mileage in the 50s.

    As to the question, "are we idiots?"

    Yes, we are.

    We will pay a tax at the pump 3x per week happily. We will NOT pay the same amount, or even half of it, as a lump check to the gubmit based on quarterly or yearly gas mileage.

    Every con in the country will be screaming about the "new tax" if you add another point of collection (i.e., make people responsible to somehow report and pay their mileage tax.) Plus, are we using honor system? You have an X% chance of getting audited, but what is your proof of what your odometer said? Or for that matter, even if it's "averages" and it's somehow okay, how do you feel about the gubmit saying they're coming to your house Friday to audit your current mileage?

    So you would have to package some very broadly applied tax (i.e., it hits bike riders and drivers alike,) to make up for the road maintenance revenue you lose when we sell less gas for the same number of miles driven - WHICH IS THE GOAL, both for drivers and for the present gubmit (but not for the oil industry of course.)

    So, looks like 2 pieces, implemented simultaneously and tied to each other, so nobody can pull a fast one after the one they like is implemented:

    1) Change the stupid reg, if indeed it's true, that emissions must be measured per gallon burned rather than per mile driven. That's a great point.

    2) The reason we don't is supposedly the lost revenue, and therefore a highway deficit situation. Package this damn rule change into an infrastructure package that spends general revenue on road maintenance.

    I'm trying to be pragmatic. We DO want to encourage the good behavior. We DONT want an unenforceable form of a tax. We DONT want to increase the deficit.

    Or, we can use the 84 mpg diesel that's street legal already & fahgettabout VW's solution that doesn't pass present regs.

    PFnV
     
  20. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    Try indenting or quoting the prose you're trying to pass off as your own. However, it's easy to see where the blog ends and your hyperbole begins.

    Regardless, this isn't very scientific. DUCY?

    The couple practices hypermiling at its finest. ... 99% of drives do not do this.

    Further, and the vast majority of Pissat data indicates 45-55 mpg at best.
     

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