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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mgteich, Nov 4, 2011.

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  1. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Belichick changed his philosophy for 2011. He kicked out veteran depth BEFORE he knew that the replacements would work out.
    ==================================
    Belichick had zero cap pressure. He chose not to keep Butler and Sanders as backup defensive backs. The alternative has been street free agents at those positions.

    CORNER
    Even if Dowling was productive in this rookie year AND Bodden returned 100% from his injuries, Butler would have been a reasonable choice as our #5 corner (and special teamer).

    SAFETY
    Even if Barrett was better than Page and Meriweather and Sanders, AND Brown was a solid #3 safety, Sanders is still good enough to be a solid backup.

    BOTTOM LINE
    Sanders and Butler should have been on the 53-man roster. Our record may be no different at this point, but the quality of our defensive backfield for the rest of 2011 would be different, and this would be the case even if Bodden and Dowling were here.

    Our 8 man defensive back group is a disgrace counting on Molden, Adams, Barrett, and Brown to back our "playoff quality" starters McCourty, Arrington, Chung and Ihedigbo. This is the worst Belichick secondary ever, and Belichick is buying the groceries, and was a secondary coach. This set of decisions is all on Belichick.

    Most sadly, this secondary is by choice. Belichick used lots of picks on the secondary. Belichick chose to say goodbye to Page, Meriweather, Sanders, Wilhite and Butler. Belichick chose not to spend to big bucks (or any bucks) on an additional defensive back.

    GOING FORWARD
    We still are favored to get into the playoffs. We still have as good a chance as any AFC team to reach the SB.

    I would note that bettors still have us as the havvy divvison favorite, the AFC favorite and the 2nd most likely team to win the Super Bowl.
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2011
  2. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    To me - literally each DB transaction has made sense in a vacuum.

    Sanders was overpaid - gone.
    Meriweather was a bum in many ways - gone.
    Page was mediocre - gone.
    Butler was underperforming - gone.
    Bodden was underperforming, lacked commitment - gone.

    It's only when you add them up that they become a problem.

    We are what we are back there. Its up to the front 7 - and I look to guys like Haynesworth & Ellis stepping up - to taking some pressure off of them.
  3. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I had no problem with the Pats releasing Butler then and I still don't now. And Belichick did know he had better players on the roster when he made that move. At the time he cut Butler, he had four healthy CBs who were clearly higher than him on the depth chart. His cut only started to not make sense last week after the Pats cut Bodden and sent Dowling to IR. You can't look back two months ago with the forsight of today and then re-determine that Belichick didn't have a replacement for him. If Dowling didn't get hurt week two, no one would care about Butler. No one said when Butler was cut that Belichick was crazy. In fact, most cheered the cut.

    As for Sanders, I thought it was a bad move cutting him. It was even worse in that they didn't find a legitimate replacement.
  4. RayClay

    RayClay On the Roster

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    He kept Adalius thomas until after the season and that worked out great. They were really fired up against the Ravens.
  5. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

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    MGT is correct. This D-Backfield is an absolute abomination, perhaps the worst here
    since Chuck Fairbanks took over in 1973.

    Adams, Sergio & Diggy have no business whatsoever being on a team with championship
    aspirations, and Barrett & Molden are no better than 5th Safeties & CBs respectively.

    Bodden, Butler & Sanders - with all their faults - still should've been kept here,
    and FS Dashon Goldson should've been signed when Bill had the chance to do so.

    And needless to say, a CB made of less Glas than IR Dowling should've been drafted.

    With just those simple, easily done moves, our D-Backfield goes from abominble to at least respectable.
  6. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Perhaps some here are forgetting that Bill did not have the benefit of a real off season to evaluate and sign some different players. He had little to go on in knowing what he could do or not do.

    Hindsight is 20/20 but I think we need to put this in proper perspective. Evaluations of his drafting is fair game, players he signed last year are fair game. But what he could have done this off season I think is a bit unbalanced in criticism.
  7. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree that Belichick should likely have not made such a drastic change at secondary all in the same year, and I think just about everyone would agree.

    That said, is it really a coincidence that not many of these players are even umm, actually playing or contributing to any of the other 31 teams right now?

    We all saw and heard of the 32nd ranked pass secondary last year, and watched it fail miserably in the playoffs, where they made Sanchez look like Montana. It was obvious that the coach felt that those players weren't working very well. It's how he went about that approach that is puzzling to many, myself included. Then again, the off-season labor situation may have also had something to do with some of those choices, as IcyPatriot said. That is likely why Belichick went out and drummed up some well-respected, veteran names at the position of DL, to try and combat that problem. Some of those players may end up working out, and the DL may end up gelling into a solid unit--as the season progresses and they all learn their assignments.

    As I said before, it's also reasonable to think that McCourty may have earned the coach's trust for pretty much holding his own on that side of the field; seing as how he was AFC defensive rookie of the yr, and named a team captain. It was wrong for Belichick to assume that he'd be anywhere near that good again this yr, but then again--just about everyone made that mistake. It was also was not his fault that Dowling became injured, as he was likely figuring on some type of production comparable to Butler/Wilhite from him.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2011
  8. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is the same rant just framed differently, and perhaps if you repeat it over and over and over again it becomes more believable.

    Revisit the Meriweather threads, he was convicted of Murder on this board in June.. and over the years was crucified here and on talk radio.

    Sanders was a non-entity and only an afterthought..

    Bodden injury prone and Butler both underperformed...

    Hindsight is always 20-20, if you note none of these players have had teams banging on their door.. Meriweather is benched, Sanders is a situational player, Bodden is looking for work.. and Butler who knows..

    See a trend????
  9. BlitzFritz

    BlitzFritz Rookie

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    its a legitimate point of view, especially looking at who we have in our secondary now. i wouldnt call it "disgraceful" but it is really "rag tag".

    but consider the following that may play into BB's head.

    1. Sometimes you have to hurt your team during the regular season by making changes, that you think they can develop from and get ever better come playoff time.

    2. He wants the ability to switch to man coverage in some situations. He wants big corners now, no more smurfs. Butler is NOT better than Molden or Adams in his view.

    3. Safety was a mess that couldnt get worse -- Merriweather free lancing, Sanders totally average and getting paid like a starter. Merriweather had to go. And you can have a big $ veteran sitting on the bench. Idihgbo is "just as good" with more upside. Ditto for Brown, Barrett.

    4. The Bodden cut was a tough one to make. He would make the team better. BUT. Something was going on and had to be dealt with NOW, not after the season.

    So he is taking a chance by cutting the veterans without having proof that the replacements are better. But with the exception of the Bodden cut, they are all "at least as good" i.e. passable.

    Summary: Butler, Merriweather, Sanders were ALL JAGS. Bodden was good but a malcontent of some sort.


    -- FRITZ
  10. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    LOL! The Pats offered Goldson a better contract than the 49ers eventually gave him. What exactly should the Pats have done? Done the Vitto Coreleone method and tell him either his signature or his brains would be on the contract? There is nothing you can do if you are the highest bidder for a guy and the guy decides that he would rather go back to his old team for an one year deal and roll the dice that he can really cash in next year (which is what a lot of free agents did this preseason).
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2011
  11. BlackandBlue1111

    BlackandBlue1111 Rookie

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    The main problem with this team, Bill has too much contol. He is not a good talent evaluator and fails to listen to his scouts. People say Bodden was a good cut because he was injury prone, guess what Bill went out and drafted the most injury prone DB in the 2nd round. Bill is a good coach when given talented players, he is not a good grocery shopper.
  12. 37Harrison

    37Harrison Rookie

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    As another poster pointed out... where are these guys that BB cut now? Is this defensive backfield any different from last? The only difference is that McCourty is having that dreaded "sophmore slump."

    I think BB knew that the backfield was still going to be a problem which is why he tried to make that front 7 more imposing. Unfortunately to this point we haven't seen it, they still aren't getting pressure on the QB.

    Be that because of scheme or the guys simply can't get there (I think it's about scheme) they aren't helping out the secondary. Haynesworth was brought in to team up with Vince in the middle and collapse the pocket an take on multiple blockers. We have seen a few times this happen and when it does it allows Anderson and others to get there. There just aren't enough "others" getting there. He can't blitz all the time because the secondary can't matchup man-to-man and he can't really bring Chung down into the box because he needs him to back up the secondary.

    It's a two fold problem right now. The secondary is what it is and has been for 3 years now. The front 7 has the most talent but they aren't doing thir jobs at this point. I see it improving over the second half of the season which will make the secondary look better. Hell, look at GB even their secondary is what it is, the same as the Pats the difference there? Matthews isn't getting to the QB as much as he did last year which in turn is affecting their pass D.

    The Pats and GB are very similar it's just GB's D is getting more turnovers. GB allows 20.1 pts/gm where the Pats allow 22.9 pts/game... less than a field goal difference. Something the Pats offense should almost always be able to overcome.
  13. BlackandBlue1111

    BlackandBlue1111 Rookie

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    Question. Who brought in all those terrible players that Bill cut ?????????
  14. 37Harrison

    37Harrison Rookie

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    I really have to diasgree here... Pats draft picks when BB has been here successes (successes = large contribution to team) * = still with team

    *Brady
    *Light
    Seymour
    *Branch
    Green
    Givens
    Graham
    Warren
    *Koppen
    *Wilfork
    *Mankins
    Cassel
    *Gostkowski
    *Mayo
    *Chung
    *Vollmer
    *Pryor
    *McCourty
    *Gronkowski
    *Hernandez
    *Mesko
    *Deaderick
    *Spikes* TBD
    *Solder

    Along with trading draft picks for players in 07 (*Welker and Moss)

    Potential successes:
    *Price
    *Ridley

    Yeah BB has missed out on some guys (Jennings, Matthews, etc.) but he's also made some great picks along the way too. Look at the last couple of drafts especially.
  15. 37Harrison

    37Harrison Rookie

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    BB.

    Are you really implying that BB is terrible evaluator because of he's brought in guys that haven't panned out???

    Show me ONE talent evaluator that has an absolute sterling record or is far and away better than BB and I'll show you their misses/bad choices.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2011
  16. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    To say BB didn't screw up with THIS year's personnel moves in the secondary, one has to believe:


    • He let Page go at a time he thought Sanders and/or Meriweather were keepers, only to learn more and have to change his mind later.
    • Bodden had to be let go for the good of the locker room, and BB shouldn't have seen that coming.
    • He got unlucky with whoever he thought would be better than Wilhite.
    But that's about it.

    Saying he didn't screw up with all the draft picks and expensive FAs he later released is a harder case to make ...
  17. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    19 defensive draft picks since 2006, 3 are still with the team
  18. 37Harrison

    37Harrison Rookie

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    This is just flat out wrong unless you mean to say defensive back draft picks... in which case you are again, flat out wrong.
  19. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You are correct, because I made the mistake of posting from memory rather than just linking to an earlier post. Here's the data that I'd looked up and posted in another thread:

    From 2006-2009, the Patriots drafted

    Mincey
    Andrews
    Smith
    Meriweather
    Brown
    Rogers
    Richardson
    Lua
    Mayo
    Wheatley
    Crable
    Wilhite
    Ruud
    Chung
    Brace
    Butler
    McKenzie
    Pryor
    Richard

    As defensive players. That's 19 picks from 2006-2009. Of the 19, only 4 are still with the team, and 1 (Brace) is certainly questionable as to whether he'll be sticking around.

    I'd say that a 21% hit rate is poor talent evaluation. Perhaps you disagree.
  20. Fencer

    Fencer Rookie

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    How did you decide on the particular span of years 2006-9?
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