this offense misses moss.. also Tate is no Moss (merged)

[WelshPat]

Tate is useful simply because he's such a threat in the return game and can alter field position. But as a wideout, to quote an old BB line the most important thing is for them to get open and catch the football.

Tate does neither well.

 

[The_Riddler]

Would you Mossy's give it a rest already.
What's missing from this offense is Tom Brady. Brady has not played a complete game this year. Now we're seeing a disturbing trend where he's not ready to play when the game starts. O-line has been good this year yet Brady has been wildly inconsistent with this throws. Too many balls at guys feet, on their hips etc. Too many 3 and outs because Brady can't connect with an open receiver. Don't know what Tom's "issues" are with his lack of readiness to play/his bad throwing mechanics but he needs to start answering for it with the media. The kids are making their mistakes but so is Brady. He has not been the same player for 2 years running....

Giselle - Factor, been an issue for a while now, the TB flame appears to be a bit less than what it used to be..........Look at TB in the presser, walking up shaking the hair out of his eyes, smile on his face. In the old days, TB would have a major snarl on his face he would say that he sucked, that he made some bad throws and that he has to improve and that he'll do what he has to do to correct any issues. We don't get those TB responses any more, everything is WE, WE, WE, WE need to execute better............Tommy how about you, you have to be better, take on some responsibility for yourself like you used to do..........

You're taking home the biggest NFL paycheck every game, what are you going to do to improve your game, which will in turn make the team better.

 

[WhiZa]

the hurry up offense worked the best , not the traditional set up offense..

That's true. It took the coaching out of it and left the game in the players hands. To bad we didn't do more of it in the game. Mangina out coached us today.

 

[dakevdude]

for me there are just couple things...

1) Randy Moss is gone...why talk about someone no longer on the Patriots?

2) Patriots 6-2...that's not bad in my book...

 

[emoney_33]

I disagree, but we only have four games each with and without him which is not a great sample size. I think the Pats have played well on offense when facing a less than great defense and crappy when they faced a good one. The Pats have just faced better defenses without him for the most part.

I'm not exactly sure what basis you have to disagree. All of the facts show that the offense was better in the 4 games with Moss than the 4 without. The only potential argument would be that the defenses in the latter 4 games were significantly more difficult. It's possible but the disparity in Brady's numbers and the offense are pretty damn large from first 4 games to last 4 games.

As for the offense being consistently mediocre, they put 23 on Baltimore which is more than the Pats put on with Moss vs. the Jets or Dolphins. They put up 28 vs. the Vikes.

First of all they put up 23 in 4+ quarters in 13 drives against baltimore, and how much did they put up against Cleveland? Anyway I've already done the breakdown of how many more drives/chances the Patriots have had in the games after Moss (i.e. the defensive improvement has given the offense more chance). Every single offensive number you can think of has taken a medium to large dive from the first 4 games to the last 4 games.

Brady went from 69.7%, 7.5 YPA, 9 TD 2 INT to 58.3%, 6.6 YPA 5 TD 2 INT. If you want to blame that all on the opposing defenses, well I just don't buy it.

 

[emoney_33]

LMAO... I love how you guys are so happy and that our offense is great without Moss. Then we lose a game and all of the sudden we need him back.:bricks:

You do realize that "you guys" are a group of individuals, all with their own distinct opinions? Unless you have specific examples of an individual changing his tune from one game to the next, what is the point of trying to gauge the general consensus? Obviously the more vocal opinions will be coming from the side that just got more "ammo" so to speak, but that doesn't mean there is a monumental shift of individual opinion.

 

[ATippett56]

Tate is useful simply because he's such a threat in the return game and can alter field position. But as a wideout, to quote an old BB line the most important thing is for them to get open and catch the football.

Tate does neither well.

Brandon Tate reminds me of Bethel Johnson, the number five receiver on the 2003-2004 New England Patriots.

 

[spacecrime]

Sorry but Moss stretched the defense i dont want to hear about Brandon Tate... when you cant move the ball against the Cleveland browns.. sorry this team will have trouble the next 4 weeks .. Pitt is a loss, indy is a toss up because its home.. if detrot does not beat its self then we might squeeze one out there but the jets will stop us... then its a fight for a wild card.. embarrsing loss today..

Pats are 0-4 without Moss this year, and never won a thing until we got him. Brady stinks unless he has Moss. He is a system QB and needs Moss for the system to work. We had our chance and blew it by trading him. We are doomed to another decade of losing seasons, not to mention being tied the worst record in the NFL. You should hang yourself to end the misery. I'd hang myself, too, but I'm already hung (or so I've been told.)

 

[bb07]

our play calling was not creative either. we need coordinators.

 

[spacecrime]

Ok, the Pats lost the Jets game because the Pats had Moss? So we need to get Moss, but only games where he doesn't have to be a focal point of the offense. In those games, the Pats ned to deactivate Moss.

By George, I think he's got it!

 

[Rob0729]

I'm not exactly sure what basis you have to disagree. All of the facts show that the offense was better in the 4 games with Moss than the 4 without. The only potential argument would be that the defenses in the latter 4 games were significantly more difficult. It's possible but the disparity in Brady's numbers and the offense are pretty damn large from first 4 games to last 4 games.

All the facts? Which imaginary facts showed the Pats offense played better in the Jets or Dolphins games than some of the games without Moss. But you might buy into the philosophy since Brady was trying to force the ball into Moss against the Jets that it doesn't count. Two of Brady's four INTs came with Moss on the team.

First of all they put up 23 in 4+ quarters in 13 drives against baltimore, and how much did they put up against Cleveland? Anyway I've already done the breakdown of how many more drives/chances the Patriots have had in the games after Moss (i.e. the defensive improvement has given the offense more chance). Every single offensive number you can think of has taken a medium to large dive from the first 4 games to the last 4 games.

Brady went from 69.7%, 7.5 YPA, 9 TD 2 INT to 58.3%, 6.6 YPA 5 TD 2 INT. If you want to blame that all on the opposing defenses, well I just don't buy it.

First, the Pats offense put up the same amount of points today as the Pats offense put against the Jets and the Dolphins both with Moss. Other than today, the game vs. the Jets Brady had his lowest completion percentage, most INTs, and most strip sacks. Brady has his fewest passing yards vs. the Dolphins.

Again, take out the Cincy and Bills game and see how they did. Against, good defenses, this offense sputtered even with Moss.

I am not saying the Pats offense is better without Moss. I am saying it wasn't particularly very good with Moss. Against good defenses, the Pats have struggled on offense with or without Moss and there is no way to spin it. If the Pats could play Buffalo every week, this offense would be great.

 

[emoney_33]

All the facts? Which imaginary facts showed the Pats offense played better in the Jets or Dolphins games than some of the games without Moss. But you might buy into the philosophy since Brady was trying to force the ball into Moss against the Jets that it doesn't count. Two of Brady's four INTs came with Moss on the team.

Imaginary facts? Every single objective measurement you can think of has taken a hit from the first 4 games to the last 4 games. If you want to go searching for times when they played bad in the first 4 games of course you'll find it. The jets game was bad, but I never argued that every single game in the first 4 was better than every single game in the last 4.

Seriously how are you even making sense right now? 2 of Brady's INTs came with Moss (in one game) and 2 came without Moss (in one game). What on EARTH is the point of that? Just look at every single measurable statistic there is. Well ok fine his INT rate went down a little bit as a product of the higher attempts but his TD rate has gone WAY down.

TOP has gone down, yards per drive, points per drive, completion %, yards per attempt, etc... etc....

First, the Pats offense put up the same amount of points today as the Pats offense put against the Jets and the Dolphins both with Moss. Other than today, the game vs. the Jets Brady had his lowest completion percentage, most INTs, and most strip sacks. Brady has his fewest passing yards vs. the Dolphins.

Again you still can't argue my point, you rather nitpick down to something that fits your argument. First 4 games total > last 4 games total is a FACT.

Again, take out the Cincy and Bills game and see how they did. Against, good defenses, this offense sputtered even with Moss.

Yeah let's just keep ripping crap out until it fits with your argument, that's great. I've acknowledged the only possible argument you have is opposing defenses as the CAUSE of the drop in production but to argue the offense has been better is absurd.

I am not saying the Pats offense is better without Moss. I am saying it wasn't particularly very good with Moss. Against good defenses, the Pats have struggled on offense with or without Moss and there is no way to spin it. If the Pats could play Buffalo every week, this offense would be great.

What's funny is that in the 4 games with Moss there was exactly 1 bad game. Yet you keep saying how it wasn't good with him. You realize Brady's completion % in FOUR games was 70% right? That's INCLUDING that bad game against the Jets. How the hell is that "not particularly good". You only use stats to help your case, you aren't looking at anything objectively. For example you use YARDAGE to claim he wasn't that good in Miami and that was one of his "bad" games when he threw for almost 80% completion, we won 41-14 and they scored on 4 of their 7 drives that weren't end-of-half.

It's surely possible that the opposing defenses were the biggest cause of the large loss in production, but you don't really have much in the way to prove that. The Jets are a top 2 defense in the league, and we played a terrible game so yeah the offense was not perfect with Moss here, they weren't perfect in 2007 either.

 

[Rob0729]

Imaginary facts? Every single objective measurement you can think of has taken a hit from the first 4 games to the last 4 games. If you want to go searching for times when they played bad in the first 4 games of course you'll find it. The jets game was bad, but I never argued that every single game in the first 4 was better than every single game in the last 4.

And the first four games were easier competition and weaker defenses. If you want to take all four games as a whole, you can argue that the current offense would do better than the Moss run offense because the first four games had the 27th (Buffalo), 19th (Bengals), 13th (Dolphins), and 6th (Jets) ranked defenses and the last four week the Pats have faced the 2nd (Chargers), 9th (Ravens), 5th (Vikings), and 21st (Browns) ranked defense. Tougher competition. Other than the Browns, the Pats have struggled against any defense ranked higher than 15 other than the Browns.

Seriously how are you even making sense right now? 2 of Brady's INTs came with Moss (in one game) and 2 came without Moss (in one game). What on EARTH is the point of that? Just look at every single measurable statistic there is. Well ok fine his INT rate went down a little bit as a product of the higher attempts but his TD rate has gone WAY down.

TOP has gone down, yards per drive, points per drive, completion %, yards per attempt, etc... etc....

I know you love Moss, but let's get real. Again, his TD rate went down because he faced tougher defenses. Brady only had two games this season with more than 2 TDs and they were against the 19th ranked defense (Bengals) and the 27th ranked defense (Bills). He has had two TDs two other times against the Jets and Browns. Every other game he has had one or less.

Again you still can't argue my point, you rather nitpick down to something that fits your argument. First 4 games total > last 4 games total is a FACT.

Sorry, but I can't look at 4 games vs. 4 games in a vaccum. The fact of the matter is two of the worst defenses the Pats have faced all year were in the first three weeks and three of the best defenses the Pats have faced have been in the past four weeks. That skews the information and doesn't make it an apples to apples argument. The Pats have faced three teams with top ten defenses since Moss has left and only one while he was here.

Yeah let's just keep ripping crap out until it fits with your argument, that's great. I've acknowledged the only possible argument you have is opposing defenses as the CAUSE of the drop in production but to argue the offense has been better is absurd.

You got me. There is no difference between the Bills and Chargers defense. If you can put up 38 points vs. the Bills, there is no reason why you can't put up 38 against the Chargers or Ravens defense. Every defense is the same.

What's funny is that in the 4 games with Moss there was exactly 1 bad game. Yet you keep saying how it wasn't good with him. You realize Brady's completion % in FOUR games was 70% right? That's INCLUDING that bad game against the Jets. How the hell is that "not particularly good". You only use stats to help your case, you aren't looking at anything objectively. For example you use YARDAGE to claim he wasn't that good in Miami and that was one of his "bad" games when he threw for almost 80% completion, we won 41-14 and they scored on 4 of their 7 drives that weren't end-of-half.

It's surely possible that the opposing defenses were the biggest cause of the large loss in production, but you don't really have much in the way to prove that. The Jets are a top 2 defense in the league, and we played a terrible game so yeah the offense was not perfect with Moss here, they weren't perfect in 2007 either.

Isn't it funny that the Pats only faced one top 10 defense when Moss was here and it happened to be the one bad game the Pats' offense was really bad? Must be a coincidence.

The Pats when the Pats played them were no better than the Ravens, Chargers, or Vikings defense. Revis was out for half the game. Pace was out for the whole game. Funny how you only factor in the strength of the defense when it suits your argument.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

For the LAST time, Moss' value went BEYOND his personal production.

Do you mean it? Is this really the last time we are going to hear that BS? Cause that would be great.

First and foremost the purpose of a deep wide reciever is to create seperation from the DB and catch balls down field. Ideal also getting YAC and scoring touchdowns.

Secondarily he has two other purposes, stretch the field opening up the short routes and blocking down field.

Good recievers do all three or at least two of them.

Brandon Lloyd stretches the field. But he also gets open and catches the ball. Same with TO, Britt, Edwards etc.

All Moss was doing was occupying a DB. In 2007 not only did he occupy the DB he also got seperation and caught the football.

Moss has never been much of a blocker. With him not getting open all he became was a decoy. And he was not willing to cheerfully play the decoy role. But he is either unable or has become unwilling to put forth the needed effort to get the seperation to actually catch the ball.

As for the lack of Moss's effect on Welker. Don't compare this years numbers to last years numbers. Compare this year w/ Moss and w/o. Welker who many predicted would start the season on the PUP and only be returning to the field in Oct or Nov is still not the WW of 2009. That has everything to do with an ACL and nothing to do with Moss.

Moss was not the center of the Pats offense he was an $8 million dollar limited role player, that was unhappy with his role.