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Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by jays52, Jan 1, 2011.

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  1. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    I like Tank Carder. Watching the Rose Bowl right now, and am highly impressed by his blitzing and pursuit skills. The seldom he is blocked he takes on the blocks of the superior Wisconsin linemen with great tenacity and technique. It prompted me to do a little research and I really like what I see. He's not a base schematic fit, but would be a great sub defender with versatility and plus run defense. He'd be one hell of a mid-late round pickup if he declared.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2011
  2. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    #95 Jersey

    Funny, I was thinking the same thing. Read this article from last January and you'll be convinced that this guy would look great with the Flying Elvis on his helmet.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/sports/ncaafootball/04tcu.html
  3. BritPat

    BritPat Rookie

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    #54 Jersey

    TCU have churned out some top quality players in recent years. There will be a heck of a lot of 4-3 teams looking at him when he declares.
  4. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    I love the Brittish English at the start of your first sentence. Sorry for the bastardization of your language in referring to a team as a single entity :). How've you been, man? Great to see you posting again. On topic, though, he is a perfect fit as a three down player for Indy or Tampa.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2011
  5. austinpatsfan

    austinpatsfan Rookie

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    that was a pretty clutch bat down on the two point conversion eh
  6. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    No doubt. He pretty much won that game singlehandedly. Hell of a football player in one hell of an upfield scheme. Huge props to TCU and what they accomplished. Coach Patterson has done a great job.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2011
  7. reamer

    reamer Rookie

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    Yeah, Tank looked great. My dad and I just finished watching the game. Very good teams going at it; that game literally came down to a few inches one way or another (field goal, two point conversion).

    Wow. Read this article on Tank Carder. Really impressive. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/sports/ncaafootball/04tcu.html

    Anyone else really impressed with Dalton, too? I thought he had a heck of a game. One bad throw, but otherwise very poised, accurate, and aware of the entire field. His center looked very good, too. Kirkpatrick won the Rimington, and his strength and agility really stood out to me. He looks like he could handle the mobility NE requires from their linemen, while also representing an eventual upgrade on Koppen's play against bigger defensive tackles.

    Oh, and Jays, what did you think of Watt? A lot of people have mocked him to the Patriots as a DE (4-tech, right?), but I don't know if he's got the power to two-gap. For a 300 pounder, though, his speed and overall movement skills blew me away. At 6'6, he definitely has the size of a Seymour, but I'm curious about your thoughts in re scheme fit. Today he played DT, DE, and OLB on a couple plays, so he definitely has good versatility. I've compared him to a rawer version of Mario Williams, but I keep going back and forth on how well he fits here. Thanks for your input. :)
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2011
  8. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    Thanks for asking, man. Yeah, I like Watt as a 4-technique with some flexibility to do unique things. I think that Belichick can do a lot with that kind of lateral agility and length. That said, he's not really the archetype right end that I think we're talking about. A term we're all going to hear in the future is "squeeze the b-gap". It is a very colloquial term included in basic scouting manuals and in basic 34 college schemes. It's the new hot term with the so called experts. Essentially what it means is to win the outside shoulder of the tackle and maintain the integrity of the c-gap which is the primary responsibility of the 34 DE in playside run defense. If you win that leverage, you turn the play inside. It's not universally true, but it is a fairly accurate depiction of what a basic assignment is regardless of faulty terminology.

    So, after a borderline psychotic, rambling diatribe, we need to consider how Watt can execute those responsibilities. First, it takes length. Obviously he has that. While lockout length is nice, the length to disrupt passing lanes is a huge plus. He's one of the few who has this. He has the agility to string a play out or get after a bubble screen, but I doubt his ability to handle a tackle/TE doubleteam, especially as the recipient of a jet crack or any derivative thereof. Do I think he can win a one on one matchup? Abosulutely, especially considering his technique. While I don't think he is what one is ultimately looking for in respect to the scheme, he does offer a unique blend of talent that correlates well to spread beating.

    So. Winded as I may be, I right now have Watt penciled in after Fairley for the right end. Even if they go Watt, it will take some coaching to accommodate him.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2011
  9. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #11 Jersey

    The Williams comparison is intriguing based on their frames, but IMO they play quite differently. Williams was more athletic, and in college seemed seemed like the kind of DE who was only really at full-bore when he was aiming at the quarterback. Watt plays the run as hard as he rushes the passer. That gives me hope that he'll have the of patience and discipline to move to move to 5-tech.
  10. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    Just curious as to whom else you like for that right end spot? It's no secret that you have this game as dialed in as it gets, and I'd appreciate your input as someone who's opinion I put a lot of stake in.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2011
  11. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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  12. reamer

    reamer Rookie

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    I'm no Patchick (though maybe one day I can be as knowledge about football and the draft :cool: ), but right now I like Mohammad Wilkerson, out of Temple. Box was kind enough to point me in his direction, and he seems to have the size, power, and athleticism to hold up well in our scheme. Plays tackle and end, makes a lot of plays for a loss, and is very, very hard to move at the POA. I can't take credit for the find, but he's probably my favorite prospect outside of Fairley, whom I doubt we'll have a shot at drafting.
  13. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    Thanks for the write up, Dalton is a binkie but I've never seen any footage of him, only read scouting reports. It's nice to know that he's legit, though I doubt it'll happen I'd like to see BB take him as a developmental project.
  14. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Jay, you mention that Watt doesn't look like he could take on doubleteams. Is this the kind of thing that can be fixed in the weight room?

    Personally, I think Watt is far from being a finished product, considering we're projecting him into a whole new scheme, but his ceiling as a DE is so much higher than a lot of the prospects in this draft. You can gain strength and technique in the NFL. You can't gain length and usually don't gain a motor, and that's why I think Watt is such a great prospect.
  15. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are a number of potential 3-4 DEs in this draft or expected to declare early. Some may fit better in a San Diego 3-4, but there are some exciting kids out there to consider:

    Class of 2011:
    -- Stephen Paea, Oregon State, 6-1/312 -- Paea could play anywhere on the front line in a one or two gap/30 or 40 front alignment. He's shorter than the Seymour/Warren prototype, but he's strong and he's used to stacking & shedding multiple blockers. 1st round value on my board.

    -- Jarvis Jenkins, Clemson, 6-4/315 -- I have to watch their bowl game against USF to update my impressions, but he's a big strong kid with good ball awareness and athleticism. 2nd round value on my board.

    -- Brandon Bair, Oregon, 6-6/272 -- Ball magnet, he finds it and he's great at clogging passing lanes and knocking down passes. He'll obviously need to bulk up more and get stronger, but he's a hard working kid who makes the other kids around him better. I'm looking forward to seeing how he does against Auburn's veteran OL. Late round project. (He might also be used like Willie Mac at OLB, not a road runner, but he's not bad in space.)

    -- Karl Klug, Iowa, 6-3/270 -- Ball magnet, he is the best guy I've seen this season when it comes to finding the ball in trash. Wrestler, he's strong and understands leverage, for all the hype about Clayborne and Ballard, this kid drew more double-teams. With QB Ricky Stanzi he was voted co-MVP by his teammates. The big problem here is his size. I suspect he's been playing in the 285 range, if so, I think he could play DE for NE. If he really was playing at 270, slim him down to 255 and develop him at OLB or ILB - HE FINDS THE BALL IN TRASH. He's a late round project, where to play him is uncertain, at worst he's another Dan Klecko, but I'm just a fan of pigskin seeking missiles.

    -- Lolomana Mikaele, Arizona, 6-2/305 -- Another kid on the short side, but he clogs the middle for Arizona. I watched him against Iowa when Arizona upet them and I've caught him in another couple games. A UDFA project.

    Class of 2012 (but expected to declare early)
    -- Nick Fairley, Auburn, 6-4/298 -- Prototypical size, top competition in college. He "broke out" this season and has been consistently good all season. He has been reported to disappear at times, but I think that's a mixture of conditioning and how much Auburn needs him in the game. He's used as a one gap disruptor, but I consider him physically capable of developing in NE's system, the mental aspect is where I have an question which must be unanswered. 1st round value on my board.

    -- Marcell Dareus, Alabama, 6-3/309 -- I know there are doubts as to his ability to play consistently as a 4/5-tech in NE's scheme, but I haven't seen anything from him which says he can't. The question is how much more will one gap teams favor him? 1st round value on my board.

    -- Muhammad Wilkerson, Temple, 6-5/305 -- He reminds me of a blend of Ty Warren and Mike Wright, he'll need to get stronger, but he's working from a good baseline. 1st round value on my board.

    -- J.J. Watt, Wisconsin, 6-6/292 -- At the beginning for the season I felt he was too raw and needed to stay in school for another season to develop; he chose to speed the process up and got steadily better through the season. I'll need to re-watch the Rose Bowl, but I think this is a kid who can be developed to play within NE's system. 1st round value on my board.

    -- Corey Liuget, Illinois, 6-3/300 -- I've recored their bowl game so I can watch him again, at the moment all I can say is he has enough size even if he's got less than ideal length.

    Class of 2012 (not expected to declare early, worth watching)
    -- Billy Winn, Boise State, 6-4/288 -- A poor man's Nick Fairley, and perhaps not even that poor of a man - the kid's a beast. I've not read where he has any intentions of declaring early, but if he does I give him serious consideration for NE. 2nd round value on my board.

    -- Derek Wolfe, Cincinnati, 6-5/295 -- Cincy struggled this season and as a result he lost some national exposure. This kid has the length and strength to hang in NE's system. 3rd or later round value on my board.

    -- Quinton Coples, North Carolina, 6-6/272 -- Another kid having a breakout season. I suspect he's playing closer to 280 and he's got the frame to get into that 300 lb range. I don't expect him to declare, but if he does ... 2nd/3rd round value on my board.

    -- Logan Harrell, Fresno State, 6-2/278 -- A little shorter then NE likes, but he's a strong kid who was very disruptive inside for Fresno. I don't expect him to declare, which I think is best for his development, but he'd be a decent late round/UDFA project if he did come out.
  16. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #11 Jersey

    Box and mayo and reamer, that's a powerful trio of recommendations on Wilkerson! I feel kind of blind on him, I've seen essentially nothing of Temple and he's not the kind of player fans make full-game highlight videos about. But trusting all of your esteemed judgment it seems to me that there are at least 4 DE prospects this year who appeal more than the much-discussed Jared Odrick last year. (I count Fairley, Dareus, Watt and Wilkerson, your mileage may vary.) That's very good news indeed.

    One point to ponder, vis a vis this thread: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/13/719542-experience-matters.html
    NONE of the 4 are seniors. NONE of them are 3-year starters. Fairley is probably the most exciting with the highest ceiling, and he's really only started for one season.

    Another point to ponder: the Patriots have plenty of depth at DE already. Deaderick and Brace are developing, Wright (knock wood) should be back in action, T. Warren is returning, G. Warren shouldn't be hard to re-sign. Players in blue are signed through at least 2012. So for me, this position is all about finding a genuine impact player.
  17. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Great list, I would add Cedric Thorton of Southern Arkansas and Chris Ballard of Iowa to this list as well.
  18. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ballard can't find the ball. It's not that he's not a great athlete because he's awsome athletically, but he needs space to find the ball and would be best on the edge in a 4-3 where he has more time to locate the ball and turn his athleticism loose.
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