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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by AzPatsFan, Aug 31, 2008.

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  1. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    Cassel survived. Many fans do not believe it.

    But all you have to do is put on your Bill Belichick glasses to see why. Cassel is not a starter, but he did send Vinnie to the shadow roster last season. And Gutierrez to the PS.
    Off those experiences, Bill asked Cassel to be the sacrificial goat this preseason and do some specific things in preseason, for the good of the Team.

    First to test and act like a tackling dummy if necessary, as Bill experimented with various OL pickups, to try and replace Neal for half a season. He did that, without complaint, and Brady had times to heal, and most importantly not get hurt.

    Then Secondly, he asked Cassel to play with no receivers, except for a bunch of end-of-roster types, to see if any of them were worth keeping. Dutifully, Cassel did so without complaint, while maintaining his POISE despite wrong routes, dropped passes, mis-timings et cetera, and try to run the entire Patriots Offense, even if in vanilla form for the rookies, despite the breakdowns of the others.

    He did so and PASSED the test with calm and no finger-pointing. He accepted the fact that the QB would be blamed for failure, despite sending scrub receivers and OL candidates out against first string opponents by and large.

    Fans didn't see that, and only noticed raw rookie KOC going against 3rd and 4th string future UPS truck drivers, and NOT running the Offense, but merely scrambling around and improvising. That is what you expect from a rookie, who would get killed doing that against a first string.

    At the same time Gutierrez showed that he has a little more knowledge but still reverts to dumb raw rookie tendencies. He essentially eliminated himself, by his dangerous passes, many more of which would get picked against a first string.

    Through it all Cassel only threw one pick. That was when CJax did not read a blitz, and ran the wrong pattern. It was a horrible looking pick as the defender easily caught it, and Jackson was no where near the ball, but it wasn't Cassel that screwed up.

    Finally as a sop, to reward Cassel he gave him Randy Moss and company for an extended first period and Cassel promptly completed passes, marched the field, unlike the other two while executing the Offense, only to have Faulk fumble in the red zone. Another time a drive lead to a FG. He also scrambled showing he had not lost his mobility when necessary. It was a good scramble started only when the play had broken down; and he was flushed from the pocket, not an instant panic run.

    That small opportunity playing with most of the genuine first stringers, reassured Belichick that Cassel had not lost his POISE or ability, despite the short end of the stick job that he had been given, for so long.


    Bill even let Gutierrez have the first stringers in an early appearance against the Giants and it confimed that Gutz is not ready yet. That confirmed that the dangerous passes did indeed become picks. Maybe next year Gutz and KOC, will mature enough and will fight for th 2nd string job.

    Meanwhile... Vinny is still on the shadow roster, knows the Offense backward and forward, and is on Bill's speed dial.
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  2. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    0 touchdowns and similar yardage, blame the line or whomever, cassel found a way to look anxious in the pocket and still not get the ball out on time..... Maybe they don't think Gut is ready, fine. But i would not surprised to see Cassel lopped off this roster at some point. They kept him and they only know why.
  3. kencc

    kencc Rookie

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    Gut has PS eligibility & cassell does not
  4. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Did you even bother to read what the OP wrote, or were you blinded by your hating on matt glasses?
  5. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Best explanation I've seen yet.

    This is the one thing I have to disagree with. My understanding is that at least some of the "improvising" was in fact designed that way. Randy Cross et al. stated that at least some of his runs were called as such (i.e., "Kevin, you take the ball and run upfield.").

    We're talking about a guy who basically had to scramble on nearly every play in college. It's natural to assume he's going to take some time to "calm down," as it were. No questioning his arm strength or speed, though. :)
  6. Brady to Brown

    Brady to Brown Rookie

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    Great post I agree 100%.
  7. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    VinnyT is officially retired after he got hurt playing for the Panthers. He'd have to file re-instatement papers and I just don't see it happening.
  8. TheComeback

    TheComeback Rookie

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    Cassel showed a lot of poise this preseason. Yeah, he didn't put up great stats, but the game isn't about numbers. Cassel may have valuable leadership and play-reading skills that we're not able to see.

    But, next time you have the chance, look at how he holds himself in the pocket, his technique, and the zip he puts on the ball. Now go watch some other backup around the league, like Kellen Clemens, and tell me that Cassel doesn't look better than them. I think you'd be surprised.

    I'm not surprised the average fan reacted negatively to his playbut that's what happens when you don't bomb it 50 yards into the in zone twice a game, or throw for two or three touchdowns in a quarter.. Personally, I thought he looked good, even if he didn't score many points. It's likely that Cassel showed more to BB and the rest of the team during practice than he did to us during the preseason. Unlike many here, I never saw him panic or lose control. He stood up straight in the pocket, looked down his receivers, and stepped up into protection when the line began to break down.

    Cries for his release were typical over-reactions from fans who ultimately know very little about the position or the game.

    When Tom Brady came out and said he thought Cassel played well, perhaps we should not have been so dismissive.

    I think the OP is spot on here. Great post.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2008
  9. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    I agree wholeheartedly. If you can add a play to the Offense called "Kevin, you run the ball". But the important point is, its not a part of the standard Offense repertoire.
  10. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why should it be a part of the standard O repertoire? Brady isn't as fast, so plays that might get O'Connell 10 yards might get Brady only 2. It doesn't mean, though, that they can't judge O'Connell based on how he executed the plays they called for him. . . .
  11. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    That also removes him from the Panthers reserve list, making him available to come back to the Patriots, just like Seau. Plus Vinnie played last year, so he is still only a preseason removed from playing, not a year and a half away fronm the NFL.

    That is a plus not a drawback, IMHO.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2008
  12. Pat the Pats Fan

    Pat the Pats Fan Rookie

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    Great post, and I agree.
  13. roguepatriot

    roguepatriot Rookie

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    Most of what PM is saying makes sense, although the one proviso is that I did not see much improvement compared to the Maimi game he played well in. For the moment all they did was keep the status quo, as only Guitterez has PS eligilibility and is unlikely to be picked up. They can still make changes, as necessary going into the season.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AzPatsFan
    Fans didn't see that, and only noticed raw rookie KOC going against 3rd and 4th string future UPS truck drivers, and NOT running the Offense, but merely scrambling around and improvising. That is what you expect from a rookie, who would get killed doing that against a first string.


    However, I think AZPatsFan is being a little hard on Kevin; for a rookie he did what was expected of him and he never had the chance to play against the 1st stringers. However, maybe this is a reaction to other posters.
  14. stcjones

    stcjones Rookie

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    Wow......were you in the war room as they drew these pre-season schemes for cassel out? Are you saying that you were there when BB told Cassel that he wanted him to play as badly as he possibly could? How did you get this kind of clearance into the Pats camp man? Please explain!

    Mark my words....when their careers are all said and done....Gutz will have had a better career than Matty Cassel........
  15. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Done.......
  16. PATRIOT64

    PATRIOT64 Rookie

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    BOTTOM LINE: Excuses for fumbles ect aside...

    Cassel could NOT take the team into the end zone ONCE in all the tries in preseason and he DID NOT face 1st stringers every play so for the Cassel ball washers lets not make it sound like he played against pro bowlers all the time throughout the preseason because he did not and besides he is the #2 going into the preseason so he is expected to play against higher rated players whcih of course he failed miserably

    0 for whatever in preseason TDs means you suck dog balls anyway you slice it

    Unfortunately for Guiterrez, who actually had some decent throws including actually taking the team into the end zone - did not perform when it was most important,and that was in the 4th preseason game,It might have been his worst showing of all 4 games and at the wrong time to do it thus Cassel gets the nod because he did not suck as bad (if that possible) as Gutz did in the 4th preseason game.

    O'Connell is a rookie QB - Enough said there,give him another year or two and he will probably be the #2 barring any vet signing before then
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2008
  17. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's only a drawback if you watched him play. With the exception of the gimme TD for the record in a won game and the drop kick, all Bill ever let his ancient veteran QB's do was mentor or take a knee. Because on some level he knew that that is about all they can do for more than a drive or two. He might have inserted them to finish a game if Brady had gone down, but he'd have had the younger QB coached up to step in if Brady were out any longer.

    But except for the speed dial comment, great post. Although I'm not sure about that reserve list comment. That's the list Farve was on and he remained the property of the Packers when he changed his mind. I believe Junior had been released, and only retired when no one else expressed interest. He unretired once Bill did. If Vinny was under conract to the Panthers when he retired, he remains their property. But I think he was only signed for that season. Can't be bothered to research it though 'cause it ain't gonna happen...
  18. carolinatony

    carolinatony Rookie

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    Sounds nice but I can't see us winning any game if Cassel is the starter.
  19. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:

    If O'Connell isn't the #2 in another year or two he'll be a bust like CJ because of his draft position...
  20. TheComeback

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    Right. I'm sure you're a better quarterbacks scout than Bill Belicheck and the Patriots staff. Please. You're embarassing yourself.

    I watched the Giants pre-season game tonight. Gutz's body language tells it all. He doesn't let the plays develop because he gets way too nervous. The interception he threw was a horrible pass, and one of many in which he did not let the play develop. He's scared of the blitz. He is lucky it got called back because the Giants defender couldn't keep a hold on the ball.

    Did I mention his awful pick in the end zone? The one where CJax fell down? Gutz didn't even look at the play. He took two steps back and let the ball go, and it cost them a potential touchdown. Yeah, CJ shouldn't have fallen down, but Gutz didn't even look. The announcer even made a comment about what a terrible play it was. The guy obviously didn't earn a spot on the roster if he was beaten out by a rookie.

    Maybe this will light a fire under his ass, and he'll sign with another team and turn into a decent starter. The Patriots just didn't see it.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2008
  21. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    I think the scrambling and the improvisation and the passing arm, revealed that KO'C has a future. It showed that it was not a wasted draft pick. KO'C has a future but it's in 2010 and not now...

    Brady didn't start his rookie year either...
  22. arrellbee

    arrellbee Rookie

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    AzPatsFan - interesting read. You may have the gist of it.

    However, let me throw out a couple other thoughts for discussion.

    I have come to believe that Belichick doesn't come close to attaching the importance that we fans do in having a sound (much less top) QB backup, strange as that may sound.

    But keeping Cassel seems to add to something of a pattern along those lines.

    A few years back, Rohan Davey had demonstrated clearly that he had 5 or more critical flaws that meant he simply couldn't even come close to being a productive QB on the field. And yet Belichick kept him around for one more year anyway. Since Belichick later let him go - and Davey subsequently proved for other teams that he indeed was totally inept as a productive NFL QB, that leads me to believe that Belichick was just filling the position with someone who had the experience with the playbook and was an arm to run the scout team during practice. I can't really think of any other reason why he would keep a totally flawed QB.

    Now we have Cassel who has at least 3 pretty glaring and deadly flaws of his own. He doesn't appear to be able to make 2 much less 3 reads. He appears to stare down his receivers giving the savvy NFL DBs golden opportunities to jump routes. And he doesn't really seem to have that much pocket savvy (witness a few of the sacks, although certainly not all). And lo and behold, he's still on the roster. My bet is he has zero chance of making the roster next year. But for now, he's the guy with the experience with the playbook and running the team in practice and, as I say, I'm not sure in Belichick's priorities, allocating resource to getting the backup QB we all think the Patriots 'have to have', is high on his list.

    Just my thoughts.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2008
  23. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    Interesting observation. I'll have to think about that for a while.:D
  24. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    For Gutierrez, all is already said and done. It's over for him.

    The Patriots cut him and no one claimed him off waivers.

    Teams showed the same interest in him they showed on draft day: No interest. Zilch. Nada.

    I think you can close the book on Gutierrez' career.

    Cassel? It remains to be seen. My guess is that he is in the NFL next year, but not as a Patriot.

    The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off.
  25. D-cleater

    D-cleater Rookie

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    What , in his first preseason ,*would* have told you that O Connell is a wasted draft pick? If he looked as bad as Cassell?

    Cassell didn't "send Vinnie to the shadow roster" , I'm afraid. Vinnie proved he should be retired. Do you think Vinnie and Flutie would have been brought in if BB had confidence in Cassell? Do you think an undrafted FA would have stuck around a year and half, and 3rd round pick spent on a QB if BB was comfortable with Cassell running the offense?

    Dude, I respect your opinion but stop fantasizing. O connell was drafted to be the backup QB. By all accounts he should be by week 16.

    I'm afraid Belichick did not ask Cassell to be a "goat" this preseason. He asked him to go out and practice executing a basic offense. He asked him to show that he can check down. He asked him to find the open receiver. He did not ask Cassell to go three and out with the first team offense so he could better evaluate other players. The only thing Cassell did , as you correctly point out, was not lose his job to Gutierrez.

    Regarding O connell, I didn't see him merely scramble around and improvise, I saw him make plays. I saw him make adjustments ( one for a TD). I saw him avoid the sack. I saw him find the open man. It's not just what I expect from a rookie, its what I expect from a QB. I saw him make players around him better, while I saw Cassell fail to hit a wide open Randy Moss. Thats what I saw. But I'm not into fantasizing about secret ulterior motives of BB, I like to think it is common sense that has made him successful.
  26. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Yeah, but two days ago you guys were saying the same thing about THIS year :D
  27. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    To be clear, if VT was only signed for one year--as I believe he was--he would be a UFA at this point, and therefore could sign with anyone. [Favre still had three(?) years left, thus he was still Packers' property, as it were.]
  28. AzPatsFan

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    I don't disagree with you. KO'C has more raw talent than Matt Cassel. But the 16th game you speak of, is in the 2010 season...
    I'm willing to give the rook a chance to develop . Why aren't you D?
  29. stcjones

    stcjones Rookie

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    Appreciate the thoughts.....but it makes no sense to me to "just fill the position" at one of the most IMPORTANT positions with a "flawed" QB. We are one hit away from a serious problem in our offense (going from one of the best in the league ...to average at best).....and it is not a concern of BB's.......I don't get it....
  30. PatsFan37

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    This is a bit revisionary. I've been one of the few not calling for Cassel's head, but that doesn't mean I think he had a good camp. Cassel would have had another preseason interception if the defender hadn't dropped an easy one, and that was from staring down a wide open Moss.

    In the fourth game, Cassel started out horribly before settling down and having one decent series. Let's be realistic. He's looked good a few times, but he's looked bad more than a few times.

    Cassel made the team because Gutierrez is worse and O'Connell isn't ready. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Cassel gets to FA and no one signs him and the Pats take him back and cut him at the end of next year's camp. Hey, it's a job for the summer playing football. He knows the system and would be insurance that all goes well with O'Connell. Naturally, if Cassel gets a contract anywhere else he'd be a fool not to take it.
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