Welcome to PatsFans.com

This is NOT all on the O-line!

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by rushless, Dec 10, 2006.

  1. rushless

    rushless Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2006
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Yes they struggled big time but shouldn't the coach make some adjustment? Where is the good old screen play? Are the receivers that bad that no one can find a single opening? I would put this more on horrible and sometimes embarrassing play callings, as it's has been pretty much all season. I really feel sorry for our D, they did a great job but run out of gas in the end thanks to our absolutely messy O.
     
  2. LloydBraun

    LloydBraun Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Good points, the screen would have really helped. But, Miami seemed to be ready for everything.

    But, the O-line does deserve grief, they were rotten. Light was a joke.

    This team was lucky to beat Detroit, and the only reason we beat Chicago was because Grossman is rotten.

    Brady will get killed if this keeps up.

    I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO mad about losing this game, I could scream.
     
  3. rushless

    rushless Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2006
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Remember last year's playoff Denver game. Denver blitzed like crazy at the beginning of the game and we used screen plays to completely shut them down. Well of course we had too many turn-overs.
     
  4. chris66

    chris66 Practice Squad Player

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    217
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +2 / 2 / -3

    what game were you watching this is all on the oline, brafy sisnt have time to throw screens taylor was in the backfield all day. He ate both Light and Kaczur
     
  5. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    20,544
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    Like the screen play where Graham fumbled? Seems I remember one or two, but chart it out for us, show us what was called, let's try and be more than talking heads more concerned with how many words we can get out while on air.
     
  6. rushless

    rushless Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2006
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    That play actually woulda worked well if not fumbled.
     
  7. unoriginal

    unoriginal In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Messages:
    3,284
    Likes Received:
    87
    Ratings:
    +282 / 5 / -1

    This is on the O-line

    I can't chart it out for you, but hopefully I can start a more edifying discussion.

    If you can win one matchup convincingly, you can use it as leverage to turn the entire game in your favor. When the Pats play Miami, the Dolphins almost always succeed in turning the speed rush game to their advantage.

    Today was the story of Nick Kaczur and Matt Light being molested. The speed rush from Taylor, Roth, et al was so good it consistently kept protection in and caused a guard to move outside just to keep Brady perpendicular to the ground. Miami's defensive strategy is built around succeeding in this fashion, because while the obvious solution against the speed rush is to either step up in the pocket or call draw plays, if you can't just block it right, Miami was sniffing out these counters by blitzing safeties and linebackers through the guard gaps. Bell in particular was in the backfield frequently by pausing a second to let his guard slide outside before rushing through a hole. If the guard lingered inside too long, Taylor in particular would repeatedly school whichever tackle he was lined up on. The representative passing play I recall is a replay where he outside-inside swam past Matt Light so quickly he achieved the pocket before a diving Mankins could even be seen. A representative running play was the own-end-zone stop of Dillon in the third quarter where Light bucket-stepped to Taylor's outside shoulder on a stretch play left, but Mankins got held up inside by both the tackle and by eyeing the linebacker lined up over him, so Taylor simply split the two and met Dillon head up on the New England 2. That was the part where Randy Cross noted "Dillon is only 10 pounds light than Taylor," if you remember that comment. That Taylor made that initial move look so easy, and then beat Dillon down like a paper mache pinata is a clear indication of how good he is and what he means to that defense.

    This is how Miami rushing five or six consistently made six and seven pass blockers look like fools. Those speed rushers are good enough to dominate one-on-one battles against the drive-blockers the Pats favor at the tackle positions, and when the Pats compensate by keeping running backs and tight ends in to block, and sliding guards outside, Miami blitzes Bell and Thomas up the middle and more often than not they get there. That Miami defense has noticeably improved since Bell was promoted to the starting line-up, and its because he is an excellent blitzer. He makes the coverage responsibilities for the rest of the defense that much easier by taking time away from the quaterback.

    The rest of the secondary is the weakness of the Miami defense, but because of the mismatch up from they are difficult to exploit without Joey Harringtoning it up and throwing sideline fades while falling off your back foot. The receivers are going to catch a lot of flak on the internet this week because "they couldn't get open," but I imagine that if Brady had time and clear sight lines he could fit the ball into the proper places and we'd all be talking about how the receivers were doing well to make difficult catches. I mean, we all loved Patten, right? Brady used to throw the ball right at the numbers on his back on seam routes, because he was covered in the front and to both sides. You try doing the same with Ben Watson when Kevin Carter, Jason Taylor, and Yeremiah Bell are converging on you.

    The best way I can think of for the Pats to solve this problem is to change their offensive line philosophy. Instead of big driving tackles and quick pulling guards, they'd need to go with quick pass-blocking tackles like Ferguson or Walter Jones and big fat mauling guards to keep the defensive tackles nearer the original line of scrimmage. That would go along way to making the matchup more even across the board, but it would also effect the Pats ability to run the ball.

    The other way to hurt the up-the-field pressure defense is to gash them for long runs, like the Jags did to the Colts today. Of course, the Colts don't have big fat D-tackles like Traylor and Wilkerson hogging up that middle, nor are the Dolphins incompetent when it comes to tackling, like the Colts are, with the notable exceptions of Cato June and Bob Sanders. That said, if Maroney were active and were to, say, break two for touchdowns like other big-time backs seem to do with regularity, the game would turn out different. Because of the speed rush, and the ability of our quick guards to trap block, the off-the-tackle run play was there most of the time, but Dillon and Pass just can't seem to hit a home run - they are double and single type backs. Long of the day was 17 yards by Dillon. Miami and other teams can afford to rush up the field against the Pats because we haven't demonstrated the ability to make the big play with the ground game.
     
  8. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    20,544
    Likes Received:
    25
    Ratings:
    +25 / 0 / -0

    Re: This is on the O-line

    A step in the right direction unoriginal! :rocker:

    Roth in his second year is starting to grow into the counterpunch they need to help Taylor with his match-ups. I need to see how many mississippi's Tommy had to survey the field and make his throw, but it seemed coverage played as much in the sack/hurry issue as the O-line's problems.
     
  9. SoonerPatriot

    SoonerPatriot In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Messages:
    3,318
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    I'll go with Reiss on this one. He wrote a couple of weeks ago in his mailbag the Pats WRs just weren't getting consistent seperation from DBs.

    I can't see that because TV broadcasts are essentially useless as far as evaluating games as BB always says, but apparently it's something that's obvious if you see them in person.

    Slightly, OT: Yerimiah Bell is a nice player for the Phins.
     
  10. mac

    mac On the Game Day Roster

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2004
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Let me ask you something. Did you hate the OC when the Pats owned the Bengals *ss? Did you hate him when the Pats destroyed Minnesota? Did you think the OC was at fault when the Pats ate Green Bay for lunch? Did you hate him when the Pats make Jax look like pretenders last year? Was it the OC's fault that the Pats fumbled 5 times vs Denver last year? Last year at Denver, the play calling had the team poised to take the lead. Then the players melted down. And the problem is the OC?
     
  11. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,333
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    I am in that camp too. The WR's aren't getting enough separation, causing Brady to hold the ball longer and thereby putting more pressure on the OL to stand up against the pass rush. Not that the OL is that great (did you see the play where Taylor just marched Light backward right into Brady?), but IMHO the problem is more at the WR position.
     
  12. rushless

    rushless Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2006
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    First, I'm talking about THIS game. Second, last year it wasn't that kid calling the plays. Third, did you know how we beat Denver's crazy blitzes just like today? The screen plays.
     
  13. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    24,704
    Likes Received:
    319
    Ratings:
    +830 / 66 / -52

    #50 Jersey

    So, what you are saying is that the coaches shouldn't accept any responsibility for not double-teaming Taylor with Graham?

    Interesting.

    Also, do you realize that Brady is the one who calls out the protections, right? How many times did you see him call out "OMAHA" for Max protection? I don't remember him doing it once, though I will admit I may have missed it since I wasn't specifically looking for it.
     
  14. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    32,769
    Likes Received:
    1,197
    Ratings:
    +3,395 / 30 / -10

    I watched the line a lot and although Light and Kazcur got most of the credit for the poor blocking, a lot of the time it was as much the interior three's fault. There were several times I saw thot Koppen and one of the guards would double team one of the rushers leaving the tackle taking on two blockers. That isn't McDaniel's fault. That is Koppen first because he is supposed to call blocking adjustments and the guard second because he should see the two rushers and adjust his assingment.

    McDaniels' was far from perfect, but we were just beaten in the trenches. We have done this to other teams a thousand times before against better OCs than McDaniels and we never said that that OC was crap. We gave our front seven all the credit for overpowering the opposing line.
     
  15. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,599
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Re: This is on the O-line

    Nice, thoughtful post, unoriginal. It did seem to me however, that far too often, Light was left one on one with Taylor. It appeared to me that he wasn't up to that task on any play. And Kazcur wasn't doing much better. I usually do the "Mississippi" thing when Watching Brady throw. There weren't too many times I got through my "back, back, set, look, look, throw" routine today. (It was interesting to note, however, that when Tom did have his time, I would say "throw" aloud-this cracks my sweety up- yet Tom would not get rid of it. That was something he used to do without hesitation, even if it was to a cute girl in the second row. But not this year.)

    So I guess what I am trying to add, or debate is that far too often the TE's and RB's were running routes and not kept in for protection. I saw far too many of the guard sliding off his block to help out Light. Which made them vulnerable to the inside blitz.

    As I've already indicated in another thread, I would have preferred that the TE's and/or (preferably)backs stay in on every play for protection, and placed more burden on the wide-outs to gain separation and make plays today. The fact that the coaches didn't change their game plan to give Brady more protection tells me that they have no or little faith in the current crop of WR's on the roster at this time.
     
  16. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2005
    Messages:
    19,947
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +29 / 0 / -0

    I heard on the broadcast team a comment at one point that Belichick felt they had a good plan for dealing with Taylor and Graham would be held in or chipping him. Trouble is it wasn't just Taylor, and the focus on him may have created more opportunities for the rest of the Miami front 7.

    On Sports Extra Smerlas pointed out that on one play Taylor's double team took each other out. He also indicated that the protection problems were exacerbated by WR's who could not beat press coverage to allow Brady to burn the pass rush. When they did beat their coverage they either fumbled, or couldn't make the catch - including Gaffney who slowed down to find a ball that then sailed beyond his outstretched arms. Brady had 2 WR with 4 catches between them for 37 yards, and a false start penalty. He was also sacked 4 times and hit 9. I think this Oline is inconsistent at best, as it has been for almost 2 seasons, and gets exposed more than ever because of the equally inconsistent performance of this 2006 cobbled together excuse for a receiving corps.

    Brady calls out some protections and identifies the mike, but the center is responsible for making the line calls and the players are responsible for holding their blocks and executing the calls. On Sports Final Felger said after Neal commented that they had protection problems he tried to get comments from Light, Koppen or Mankins but all declined - Mankins not before saying he better not lest he say something he may regret. Brady was asked in his PC if protection problems were at the root of the trouble today - and his response was you know I will never stand up here and talk about that...a lot of things go into the passing game and we didn't do any of them well.

    Heck, he even covered for Faulk whose pass doomed a TD playcall. Said he thought the wind pushed the ball into a forward pass. Hey, the play worked great in practice. I think most of our players perform better in practice. That's part of this teams frustration. They can't replicate those performances in game situations.
     
  17. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    9,948
    Likes Received:
    69
    Ratings:
    +165 / 2 / -3


    Brady's comments on this during his Dennis & Callahan were interesting - he summed it up as a pick your poison situation.

    Now Brady is never going to outwardly criticize anyone on the team - though he will collectively lay blame with everyone.

    He did not give any argument to the fact that the WR(s?) were covered and did not have separation. Nor did he try to convince D&C that the WRs were making good adjustments to help him out (one of their big criticisms this morning)

    But Brady did point out that when a good D like the Dolphins are double teaming the WRs that theoretically should free up a TE or RB. However, when you have a guy like Taylor who would require you to double team him, you effectively kill that short yardage advantage by having the TE or RB taked to block him.

    That's not to say you don't leave Taylor in single coverage the whole game, but it does mean that there are times when, yes, the OL needs to do their job and block Taylor on their own while the RB and or TE is running/running a route.

    Maybe this does come back to play calling in a way - Graham wasn't running routes all day nor blocking all day - its more about picking your opportunities knowing when to keep the extra blocker in and when not to...

    My feeling is that a sub-par WR corps will eventually come back to haunt you and today it certainly did - but with SO many aspects of the game not working I'm loathe to draw too many conclusions on where the root cause of the problem is.
     

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>