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This COULD Save the White House for (R)

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by BelichickFan, Apr 16, 2007.

  1. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Of course we are all assuming a Democrat wins. But this quote :

    "And a majority now says, in a reversal from a year ago, that their federal income taxes are too high, according to an April Gallup poll."

    Now, I know Bush has been bad for the deficit, spending, etc. But I'm sure the vast majority of people think that Repubicans are better for tax rates than Democrats. Most of us know that taxes are going up if the Democrats control both houses of Congress and the White House. So that quote gives me hope that the people will choose to keep the powers separated.

    Here's the article, btw :

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0416/p01s04-usec.html
     
  2. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Ouch. The welfare state is truly going to destroy this country.

    The Congressional Budget Office, in a long-range forecast prepared in 2005, outlined a baseline scenario in which entitlement programs push federal spending to 25.3 percent of GDP by mid-century, up from about 18.4 percent today. That number could go higher still if medical inflation doesn't edge downward.

    Similarly, Shilling predicts that the number of "government beneficiaries," as he defines them, will grow to 60 percent of the US population by 2040 Against this backdrop, many Americans are understandably uneasy about the fiscal path of their politicians.
     
  3. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Yeah, it's not a very positive article overall. But with the two bigges, social security and medicare, being very popular it's difficult to see things changing.
     
  4. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    What's of note is how ncome taxes may have dropped slightly, fees have risen dramitically. A government associated fee is a tax. If government doesn't slow it's reach, and spending, we're doomed.
     
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I expect the Democrats will push for a more progressive income tax, but with cuts for the middle class and increases for the wealthy. I've seen a couple of articles where leading Democrats defined middle class as families earning under $200k. The Republicans have lost a lot of fiscal credibility over the years, and the Democreats, by virtue of not being in power, are probably more trusted on economic issues than they have been in years.
     
  6. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    The rich pay virtually the entire income tax already. Short of having the bottom 50% pay zero, this has already been done.

    Fiscal responsibility yes, but not tax cut responsibility. That's the point I made in the original post. Remember :

    But if Americans, rightly, think they're overtaxes that it CLEARLY a Republican issue still.
     
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You're using the measure the rich want to use. If we use percentages of income, the rich don't pay more. After all, much of the their income is taxed at the capital gains rate. Perhaps we could increase the capital gains tax for any income over, e.g., $200k.

    Those who worry about the sacrifices the very wealthy are being asked to make will buy your point of view. But, those who believe that we should continue to help the needy will most likely support continued investment in social services programs, tax cuts for the middle class, and tax hikes for the wealthy. Of course, the issue of efficiency is important, too, and right now the Dems may have an advantage there, primarily because Clinton did a good job with the budget and the Republicans have been reckless not only with spending, but with oversight.

    Depends how it's framed. The Republicans really lack credibility right now. That said, the Democrats have a knack at losing elections, especially Presidential contetsts!
     
  8. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    I need to bookmark this, or a similar site :

    http://www.heritage.org/research/features/budgetchartbook/charts_T/t4.cfm

    The bottom 50% pay 3% of the income tax. The bottom 75% pay 15%. Not much cutting to be done there.
     
  9. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    That's a Neo-Con way of looking at things.

    For example. Last winter was relatively mild, so Bill Kristol goes on Fox and says "Hey, Global Warming is a good thing - who can argue with the nice mild winter we just had?"

    Of course, Mr. Kristol is only talking about RIGHT NOW. He conveniently brushes under the rug the contention that the warming will be taking place over many years, and while it is cute and cuddly now, it won't be as it progresses.

    Kind of like saying "I know Bush has been bad for the deficit (our offspring's tax burden) but he's giving me that interest only mortgage today, baby!"
     
  10. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Not really. It is what it is. If people think they're overtaxed and think that the Republicans are better for lower taxes then that has a good chance to get votes for Republicans depending how high taxes are on the voter's prioirty list.

    I made no comment on whether this is good or bad thinking based on other factors . . . simply a statement of fact that people think they're overtaxed and my assumption that the tax issue favors Republicans.
     
  11. shmessy

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    #75 Jersey

    Point taken.

    The flip side is that the Republicans have for the past decade and a half been losing that argument in the public eye, since they ignore that the voters are just as much (if not more) worried about interest rates and deficit spending.

    People aren't as simple as they once were. Today, far more voters have mortgages and other loans that are based in interest rates. They now see that high deficits mean higher interest rates and higher taxes down the line. Worse yet, merely shifting the tax burden from federal to state and local is not fooling as many people as it did in the 80's. That shell-game doesn't work as well anymore.

    Saving $1,000 per year on their federal taxes, while have to come up with an extra $2,000 per year on state and local taxes, gov't services and loan interest payments is a suckers game. Even some Republicans are now recoiling from being P.T. Barnum.

    From your response, I give you credit for seeing through it. I believe the general public is catching on also.
     
  12. DarrylS

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    I think that one of the candidates on either side could really distinguish themselves as different if they were to either support the Forbes Flat Tax.. or a sales tax based on consumption.. this whole tax thing is too politicized and polarized(look at Rush's home page), in reality our current system stinks and our tax burden increases, while the federal gov't is getting bloated.. and our states and cities are doing with less.

    Someone somewhere has to do something different, as this is not working...
     
  13. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Agree with that. The stock market also works into it too, while the ultra libs like Patters like to slam things that help the stock market, but a huge number of people are in it now through individual investments or 401Ks. So when Patters generically calls for capital gains increases, he is taxing more than the rich and slamming the value of their retirement funds as the market would plunge if capital gains/dividends rates went up noticably.

    BTW, do any cities ever vote to raise taxes ? I'm curious because we keep getting these issues to vote on 1% sales tax increases, etc, and they never pass, Politicians whine about needing money while adding traffic lights that aren't needed. We always vote the tax increases down - it's kind of a fun game.
     
  14. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    That would increase taxes on the middle class. People don't like to acknowledge it but it's true. The sales tax I like because it's so simple but could get complicated as food, clothes, other necesseties would likely be exempt.
     
  15. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

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    #75 Jersey

    People are overtaxed by virtue of the fact that the feds tax your wages and income. That alone is too much.

    The idea that people think the repubs are better on taxes than the dems is hilarious and, unfortunately, true. It's like preferring being run over by a Mack truck to a White Freightliner.
    Six of one....
     
  16. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    While I agree with that, when it comes to voting it doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that people correctly think that Republicans are better for lower taxes. And if that's a significant issue to them when voting, it helps Republicans - and the poll they reference indicates lower taxes is more important than it used to be, whether it's important enough to influence enough votes who knows.

    Whether taxes should be lower (I obviously think they should be) is a completely different argument.
     
  17. mr3putt

    mr3putt 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    The big drag on the current budget is the continuing war in Iraq.
    Federal pensions are an anachronism and should be examined against the private sector's benefits.

    If taxes are the sole litmus test for the next election then this country is doomed!!!!!!!

    Wake the "F" up!!!!!
     
  18. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Federal Employees hired after some time in the mid '80s are mostly on a 401(K) equivalent retirement system now.

    No-one's saying taxes is the big issue. I'm just saying that for those who it is the biggest issue, this poll shows Republicans likely will get good support there.
     
  19. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    It's call Real Estate Tax and Christie Todd Whitman (and many other Gov.'s, subsequently) used it to great electoral success in "cutting" state taxes in the 1990's in NJ.
     
  20. mr3putt

    mr3putt 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    One trick ponies.
    Screw them.

    The future of this country transcends taxes.
     

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