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Third down D with Junior and Rosey

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by JR4, Dec 5, 2008.

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  1. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Does anyone think PATs could use more 2-5-4 in an attempt to get a
    better pass rush on passing downs?
    How about a front seven of

    -------------- Warren-----Seymour
    Vrabel------Seau-----Mayo-----Guyton----Colvin

    Think BB might get a better pass rush out of that configuration?
    Several permutations of that line up could also be effective.
    like:
    -------------- Warren-----Seymour
    Guyton----Vrabel-----Seau----Mayo----Colvin

    I think BB could do some inventive things to free a rusher
    with these players in a configuration something like this.
    Any thoughts?
  2. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    I think Bruschi is banged up, Guyton has been taking more snaps in running situations. My personal feeling is that Seau will rotate in at SILB in the base 3-4 to spell Bruschi. I don't know if he has the speed to be on the field in the nickel package anymore, but I'm willing to have him prove me wrong.

    I'll continue to advocate for using Wilfork in nickel packages - just looking at the package you've drawn up, I personally think that Wilfork has been successful in the nickel packages this year - and that guys like AD, Colvin, Vrabel can force the QB up, and with the big fellow Vince in there, there's no room to go for the QB. Seymour has been an excellent pass rusher this year, so the personnel to get a good rush is there.
  3. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    I posted something like this in another thread and I'm glad to see the discussion.

    We simply have to get more aggressive on D somehow. I think it will improve our CB's greatly, as well.

    I like the Idea of flipping that scenario with Guyton, Mayo and Seau (and Colvin?) being plusses in coverage either for speed or diagnosis.

    How about a 4-4-3 (could also be 4-5-2 depending on the safety play)

    Wright/Green/Smith, Warren, Wilfork, Seymour
    --------------------------------------------
    Guyton, Seau, Mayo, Vrabel/Colvin
    ----------------------------------
    Hobbs, Meriweather, O'Neal/Wilhite/Richardson

    A basic Nickel will probably be effective against Seattle, but it would be good to some power scenarios to try on AZ and BUF.
  4. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    Wilfork is very athletic for such a big man. I think that's a big plus he has over many NT's in the same size category. I agree that he could be excellent in the Nickel with Seymour, and I really think Seau will improve the pass rush by replacing (if not upgrading) what Vrabel has to do in coverage, letting him blitz (on passing downs, of course). Seau should be better in coverage from an instincts/diagnosis POV than the rookies and is likely quicker than Mike V. when he has to help cover.
  5. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    And it makes the unit bigger, which to me, is important. Speed is important on the edge, power in the middle.

    AD going down is a huge blow to the plans, so, we better hope Colvin still has it. I also am confident in Seau, I don't think a guy like him suddenly loses it or gets out of shape. He was 38 last year and played at a high level, I think the reality is this guy is an exception to the aging rule, and I think he'll do fine.
  6. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Still am not convinced that there will be a huge pass rush from our LB's... our DB's suck, pure and simple and they need all the help they can..
  7. billdog3484

    billdog3484 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    all i know is that 3rd down defense will get better in long yardage situations. right now, id say opponents are converting around 94%. so, cant get much worse....i think
  8. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I haven't seen that - the Steelers specifically used passing formations to set up NE's Nickel which had Guyton in for Buschi, then ran the ball using their big WRs to block. Games where Guyton has gotten more reps have all seen more Nickel, though I have been pleased with Gary's play against the run - he's not afraid of taking on OL head-on and more often than not does close the running lane.
  9. PatsFan2

    PatsFan2 Rookie

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    The Beginning of the End of this Defense!
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  10. satz

    satz Rookie

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    Stop playing 2 or 3 DL as it just is not working.

    put ty , vince and seymour the best 3 player in the front seven in their

    LB - Mayo ,Guyton/Colvin,Bru/Seau,Vrabel -

    here is a clue over power the Line using the strength of the big boys all this messing with confusing is confusing our rookies and execution suffers.let our strength beat them . some times you need to let player play and not think too much.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  11. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    My case would be to change a few things.

    First, I would go out there and get some situational guys who can rush with their hand down and still be stout at the POA. Names like Tuck come to mind. Draft a few 43 DE's and make them situational player. There's no need to unnecessarily deal with the conversion of college ends to backers. Wondering if they have the hips or the intellect to make the jump. Let the young, fast guys put their hands down and fill the OLB spots via free agency when you know what a guy brings to the table.

    I'm not saying go out and draft three Elvis Dumervils and make them your line, just get some quick guys who can put their hands down. Then, take Wilfork and leave him over center or a strongside shade in the subpackages. Have a stout inside guy who can blowup guards at mike, a rangy guy at will and a Mayo type at sam. Run the 33 nickel and rush four guys a snap. Stunt, loop cause confusion in passing situations.

    The problem is that our front 7 is a run defense that without Thomas is pretty inept against the pass. The shortest time frame for change is to bring in a couple of 43 ends and turn them loose situationally while we let the linebackers be coverage/run/occasional blitzers. I know, sounds great in theory, but the practicality of my dream world is likely nil.
  12. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    With there being a good chance that Warren is out, then I wouldn't be surprised to see the pats go to a 2-5 formation several times Sunday.
  13. satz

    satz Rookie

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    You mean like every time we are in third down this year. we just do not have the personal to do this.guyton and mayo are around 235-240lb are going to not generate and penerate a 300 lb gaurd inside.

    but thrid down is going to improve because seau ,colvin will read a play faster than our rookie and will make an impact.if we can get a few 3 and outs we will win
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  14. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    Who would cover anyone in that formation? You would expect that the offense will have at least 3 WR and a TE on the field. Sure you may get a pass rush but the slot WR and TE will be open by ten yards.

    This defense has gone from embarrassing to whatever is worse that embarrassing.
  15. Wax Frog

    Wax Frog Rookie

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    I believe it's a variant of my "11-man blitz" package: we'll trade your precious little touchdown for the death of your QB :D:p
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  16. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You think all 5 LB's would be rushing the passer? :confused:
  17. SVN

    SVN Rookie

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    times might just run the ball on us with a 2 man line maybe...
  18. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    i could see something like is on third and long, but isn't that like every LB we have?

    we need to preserve them at this point
  19. jczxohn1

    jczxohn1 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Another option would be let the D-line do what they really want and play one-gap instead of two, in a 4-3 alignment. Seymour wants it, Wilfork did it at the U, (we forget his nickname was "Baby Sapp") and it's perfect for Green and Wright. All 4 of those guys are quick enough to get after it if they were allowed to cut loose. They might give up a draw or two, but frankly, I don't see Rosie or Seau making a differnce inputting pressure on the QB. The best we can hope is that the 3 LB's on the field can cover a TE or RB out of the backfield.

    Rothlisberger really exposed our secondary and TE coverage. Even tho he didn't go to them much, He had the TE and Ward any time he wanted them. We never stopped a play to either guy. The only answer for this team to improve their chances is to get more consistent pressure on the QB. Any time a QB has time, we can't defend anything. We have to sell out like we were playing Tom Brady to stand a chance.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  20. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    Sounds good to me. It pains me to see how little real pressure [yes that would be sacks or hits] that guys like Seymour, Warren and Green get on the QB. I understand much of the time it's due to a stop-the-run- first/gap control philosophy, but I wouldn't mind seeing that philosophy being tweaked at the very least.

    I'm sure BB is proud to be one of the pioneers of the 3-4, or at least to have really brought it to its ultimate fruition with the Giants. Maybe he's too in love with it for that reason. The NFL has changed alot from the days when "Air Corriel" was thought to be a freakish, gimmicky offense. And we don't have any LTs, Banks or Carsons on this team.
  21. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    I don't think the 3-4 is going anywhere, but we might need to see another DE playing OLB. The question is, who is the fastest one?

    Another thought was that if Colvin is going to strictly drop into a pass rusher role, he might actually be surprisingly good. He's rested, naturally talented and fully healed (says him) and playing in a system he's very familiar with.

    We get riled up about 4-3 vs 3-4, but we're using converted DE's as OLB's in a lot of cases, so you walk up Vrabel or walk back a Green and you've essentially changed your D-Formation anyway.

    I doubt there's a lot of time spent running the DL's in single gap, but if they were, and are athletic enough, I don't disagree that the pocket would be toast for most teams. Trouble is then if you try to blitz a corner or safety or ILB, you have exposed someone and an escaped QB is a BIG problem.

    This team is in a defensive pickle, there's no doubt about it, but we now have veteran's with intangibles that increase their danger to opposing teams despite waning physical tools. This is the moment where Bill can really shine as a defensive coach.
  22. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

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    Talk about optimsim! Then again we are facing a 2-10 seattle team and a 3-9 oakland tem coming up. If the Pats O/D can't look good against those cellar dwellers, then the odds are really against us of making the postseason!
  23. NYCPatsFan

    NYCPatsFan Rookie

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    Agree. That said, being the optimist ;), I hope that the next two games allow Rosie and Seau to get their bearings quickly and enable our coaches to figure out the best way to tweak our D so that we go 4-0. :D
  24. Patriot Missile

    Patriot Missile Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    To be honest I don't know why we didn't sign these two in the first place. It's no secret parts of our defense are aging,so are these two. But we could of been using these guys in sub packages all season long, in doing so keeping the defense fresh.
  25. Wotan_the_Wanderer

    Wotan_the_Wanderer Rookie

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    Though he's been inactive for most of this season and this was his first real game of the season, I still think Colvin held up better than what I've seen of Woods for most of the season and Guyton who was forced to play OLB in Woods' stead for the first half of this game. The guy obviously still has some rust to work past, but he was holding his gap assignments far better than Guyton and even managed to put some pressure on the QB. It doesn't show on the stat sheets nor will it be in the highlight reels, but on one running play for the loss, Rosey got deep into the backfield, cut off the outside to contain and force the runner into Seymour for a mop up tackle. There's something to said about "old and slow vets" who understand this defense and play within the system.

    I just hope the front office extends him after the season for a far team friendlier contract. Even if he's not the same player of a couple seasons ago, the guy can still play and play well in this defense.

    And Seau, well, what more needs to be said about this guy other than that he's a true warrior.
  26. TheBostonStraggler

    TheBostonStraggler Rookie

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    This is a stop the run, stop the big gain pass play, hope the other team makes enough mistakes to have to punt, type defense. I doubt at this point in the season it will be anything more than that. Nothing right now and none of the guys just brought in are going to change that in any significant way. If everyone gets relatively healthy, maybe we can do a measured amount more with the D.
  27. pats_premi

    pats_premi Rookie

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    It is understandable folks being exicited about Mayo and Guyton, but both of these guys appear to be libility in the pass defence. Seau on the other side may not be as fast, but he is always around the ball. It was nice see the third down defence improvement with Rosie and Seau in the game.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2008
  28. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I was thinking the same thing... these Vets made a difference for sure!
  29. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    This all I can contribute to the conversation:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  30. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    Can't wait to see this defense next week with these 2 playing the whole game. We were solid in the 2nd half on D. If not for the big play to Branch it was a shutout. And that's with less than a week to prepare for both.
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