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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Aug 20, 2007.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken On the Roster

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    ...THIS week!

    "not for nothin'" but with the season a mere 3 weeks away, THIS is the week we need to see the "missing" back on the field. That means Randy Moss, Richard Seymour, Ty Warren, Laurence Moroney....and Asante Samuel. Thoses are 5 key players who NEED to get on the field these next 3 weeks if they are to have any real impact over our first 3 regular season games games.

    1. Randy Moss - We have seen all too well how long it takes for any kind of rhythm and comfort to occur between QBs and receivers. If Moss is going to get into anything that remotely resembles a link between him and Brady, he is going to need EVERY SINGLE PRACTICE opportunity these next 3 weeks...and even then true compatibility is still months away.

    2.Richard Seymour - Face it, for a lot of reasons, Richard didn't have his finest moments last season, despite a pro bowl selection that wasn't warranted. You would think that if he is going to get back to his true position as one of the elite DTs in the league, he has to get on the field and practice.

    3. Ty Warren - Isn't is worrisome to you that Warren has the same injury that hobbled Seymour the ENTIRE season last year. Given that today's game is played with the hands, rather than shoulder pad and helmets...an elbow injury is a serious impediment to how you can play the game.

    4. Laurence Moroney - Curtis Martin used to say that he needed about 30-35 summertime carries to get ready for the season. That's fine spread over 4 preseason games. However Moroney isn't going to get near that many even if he plays the last 2 practice games. I know a lot of people hold high expectations for this kid, but he isn't LT....yet. He needs SOME work to get ready for the speed of a REAL game

    5. Asante Samuel - This is the week where concern HAS to go up. IF Samuel is going to have ANY impact on our first 3 games, he needs to get into camp sometime this week...the earlier the better. I don't care how great his physical condition is right now. We all should know that physical shape and football shape are 2 different things. His presence on defense is more important given the fact that the Offense is not going to be at its best for several weeks anyway.

    I think its time for the FO to sweeten the deal and give Samuel some reason to save face and get into camp right now. Something like give Samuel part of his $7.79MM paycheck up front in a signing bonus, or perhaps some franchise incentive, like if he is ELECTED to the pro bowl the Pats won't franchise him. It really won't take much.

    In less than 3 weeks we start what we all hope will be a historic season in Foxboro. It very well could be. However it isn't going to happen if we DON'T see these 5 key players on the field VERY SHORTLY.
  2. patsgo

    patsgo Rookie

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    as long as they are on the field for the jets ,thats all that matters, ruhing them into a meaningless preseason is stupid, they are vets and keeping them healthy is the most important thing, i wouldnt mind if a starter didnt play another down this preseason , as long as they stay healthy
  3. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    I think this is not nearly the worry that you do, Ken. I agree that they need to see some action, but there is a sense of "must got into camp and start practicing NOW" even if that's not literally what you posited.

    As far as Asante goes, frankly I don't think they need him. He'll be back in a day or a week or so, but even if he isn't, the only reason we HAVE to have him is when injuries crop up. I don't want them promising him anything, and I don't think they will. Get into camp, #22. Oh, and Gay's ahead of you on the depth chart, as is Meriweather, you short-sighted little punk.

    Randy Moss and Brady will get on the same page more quickly than, say, Caldwell and Gaffney did last year, or will at least make up for it with superior talent. I am so not worried about him.

    Warren may have injured the same areas as Seymour but that doesn't necessarily mean it's of the same severity. The injury sounds quite minor from what I've read.

    Not sure what the point is with Maroney - maybe you didn't hear, but he's out of the red jersey, he's practicing full-contact RIGHT NOW and will presumably play this week. I expect he'll get somewhere in the range of 10-12 carries. Then about the same the next week.

    Seymour should be fine, they're just taking it easy with him. He could not play the first three weeks and that DL will still be fine. The Pats have the luxury of being good and patient with Richard until he is MORE than ready.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2007
  4. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You may prove to be right but I think that opinion is a little overstated. We saw last year how long it took but only with Caldwell - Gaffney, Gabriel, etc, weren't even on the Patriots this time last year. Only Caldwell was here close to as long as Moss has been. And Brady-Caldwell was pretty good early with a much lesser talent than Moss. Ignoring the ones who came way late, looking at Brady-Caldwell then adding in Moss' far superior talent makes me shrug for now.

    As I said a while ago, what I would do is promise to take less in a Franchised trade. The problem for Samuel is that if we Franchise him and only take the two #1s, no-one will give that to use. So if we promise that if Franchised we'd take less (a #1 and a #2 from an AFC East team, a #1 any other AFC team, two #2s from an NFC team, or whatever) then he'd know that even if Franchised he could still legitimately negotiate with another team.

    Here's my thread on it :

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=56747
  5. ClevTrev

    ClevTrev Rookie

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    As for Randy, I'm confident that he and Brady are good to go now. Why risk further injury and display him to the competition (Jets are first game) at this time?

    Seymour has become the consistent veteran who the team can plug into a game and will deliver a consistent, dominating performance. I'm willing to cast my faith in the coaching and training staffs as to what is best in his case.

    While Warren is listed as having a "sprained elbow" it's impossible to assess the degree of sprain and compare this injury to anyone else. If you've ever had a sprain, you'll know that one can be very different from the other. In Warren's case, I expect him to deliver a Pro Bowl season.

    As stated, Maroney is ready for contact now and it's expected he'll play some against the Panthers.

    Asante will be back, but given how Gay, Hobbs, and the other CBs have played, I confident the team will make the right move to ensure the defense has quality players from front to back. To make this an urgent priority is exactly what Asante and his agent would want.

    As the team moves closer to the regular season, I'm confident that it's shaping into a team that will be successful over the course of a 16 game schedule and the playoffs. This is far more important than getting a look at known quantities during the preseason.
  6. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What we need to NOT see is further injuries. Our starters have nothing to prove. They shouldn't be playing, except to the extend they ar eneeded so certain players can be evaluated playing with the first team.

  7. patpatriot

    patpatriot Banned

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    I'm not that worried about Moss due to the style of his play which is more "just toss it up there and let him make a play on the ball" as opposed to other receivers who are more timing pattern players. On the otherhand Seymor just said he doesn't know when he's going to be back. Could be just typical Foxboro closed mouth strategy but then again maybe not. Green Wright and Smith have shown me enough that I think we could live without him and still be successful, at least for a while. As far as Samuel goes, he's not going to miss a paycheck but he will have to play his way back into a starting role. Maybe he just doesn't care anymore.
  8. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    You can't possibly promise him that. You'd be totally showing your hand to whatever team you're negotiating with, especially if Asante has worked out a long-term deal with them.

    The Pats have all the leverage right now, supplemented by the fact that they have won super Bowls with Gay starting and Earthwind Moreland playing significant minutes. Asante will come back soon, and if by some miracle he does not, the Patriots D is way too good to worry about that. When he does, fantastic, but I'm fine, as is.
  9. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Well I think you can. It's a middle ground between two #1s. If agreed to it gets us Samuel for this year + rock solid compensation after this year.
  10. patfanken

    patfanken On the Roster

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    A couple of points on the comments thus far.

    1. I think several are being naive about the connection between practice and performance. Randy Moss just CAN'T arrive suddenly in September and be the player we expect him to be. Didn't you notice those 2 picks last weekend. 2 picks because the QB and WR aren't on the same page. If its so easy just to show up on game day because you are talented, then why do STILL Manning and Harrison practice so hard after all these years?

    2. As for Seymour so much of what a DLman does is instinctual based on thousands of repetitions. Sure he could come in in September and be productive...but would he be the IMPACT player we have come to expect from 2001-2005, or will we get the decent DE he was last season. Seymour NEEDS those repetitions.

    3. The one area I admit to using a bit of hyperbole is with Warren, who did participate and get reps through most of the camp. It is likely that his injury is merely a "strain" and we should see him ready for the opener. However we CAN'T forget that we are dealing with the NE Patriots FO. Not exactly forthcoming when it comes to injury status. What we don't know will ALWAYS make us speculate....and so I did. :D

    4. Good to hear about Moroney. One out of 5 is better than nothing I guess.

    5. I don't want the Pats to give away their Franchise leverage with Samuel next year, BUT we could give him a reasonably difficult standard to reach, inorder to get him off the hold out. I would trade a probowl type season in exchange for not franchising him. I think its a reasonable goal. With Champ Bailey's spot locked up that would leave only 2 postions available in the selection process. THere are several CBs in Samuel's class (McAllister, Mathis, etc) Samuel would have to put up a MONSTER season in order to separate himself from that group....and if he had a MONSTER seaon, it would bode very well for the Pats, especially give how Hobbs is progressing and having Gay as the nickel.

    The idea about telling him what we'd trade for him in advance is not good business. He knows right now that we wouldn't demand 2 #1s for him. Besides I think its very unlikely that a team would give Samuel the huge money he wants AND a couple of first day picks.
  11. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    I don't think we're arguing that, Ken. I think we're saying there's still two pre-season games and 3 weeks of practice until the jets game. I, for one, would agree with you if Moss and others don't play AT ALL in the pre-season. I suspect others would, too.
  12. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    I have no interest, and the Patriots have no need and, I suspect, no interest - in giving up the leverage to Samuel. I don't think the team will stick to two #1's but there is NO REASON to relinquish the possibility that they will drive as hard a bargain as they can for Samuel.

    Players often make the Pro Bowl the year AFTER they deserve to, and I don't want to risk getting NOTHING (outside of a compensatory pick) for #22. Odds are VERY good that the Pats could franchise Samuel and deal him for a #1 pick. I don't know why we'd risk losing that chance.
  13. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    PFK, all those CAPS make the post seem a bit HYSTERICAL. As for me, I'd be a lot more hysterical if I were a Broncos or Giants fan, watching key players succumb to injury.

    On the two picks: one was Stallworth slipping, the other was thrown over the helmet of a runaway train. I'd blame both on assorted OLine problems and Brady's eagerness to throw rather than WR / QB miscommunication.

    There's a balance to be struck between playing time and the risk of injury. When a player is already injured and the games are meaningless, the balance has to be tilted toward caution. Would you have wanted an injured Warren and Seymour in on that goal line scrum? I was happy they were sidelined, what with the Titans out for blood.

    Lastly, I'm not sure who Moroney is, but I'm guessing Maroney wouldn't approve of the spelling. :) And I'm glad he's back, but I won't be upset if he doesn't play more than a few snaps in the opening minutes of the 4th preseason game. He's never carried the full load for an NFL season, so why add to it?
  14. ClevTrev

    ClevTrev Rookie

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    As Seymour stated on WEEI this morning, he'll be back when he can dominate. I like the fact that the team is being cautious at this time. I like the fact that they can afford to be cautious due to the depth at DL. It's nice to have players who can step in and provide some continuity. Fisher and his coaching staff were duly impressed with the goal-line stand at the end of the 1st half, and that was done with two backups on the DL. And they were good DL backups!
  15. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    I appreciate the caution, as well. The fact is, if the Patriots enter the post-season healthy, they win the Super Bowl. They just do. How we get there is almost beside the point, as long as injuries aren't catastrophic. So if the Pats go 10-6 instead of 13-3 because we've taken care to get guys like Seymour, Warren or whoever back, I say it's worth it. I mean, HFA is important, but so is erring on the side of caution.

    All that said, I think the Pats could win their first few games without Seymour, if need be.
  16. Brownfan80

    Brownfan80 Rookie

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    I disagree emphatically. Homefield Advantage, as we saw last season, is pretty damned important. I don't think any team in the NFL is talented enough to roll through the playoffs regardless of circumstance. This Patriot team looks good on Paper, but we, of all fans, should know that paper champs are the most worthless things in the world.

    I agree that the coaching staff should protect key players from themselves, but I don't agree with your logic in arriving at that conclusion.

    It's been shown that the Patriots can win without Seymour, and they have done it and know how to from previous seasons.

    However, Moss is new to the team and to the chemistry with the QB.. and so I do think it'll be harder to 'plug him in' after much missed time and have him perform at the level that Seymour will play at if he's 'plugged in'.
  17. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    I'm not saying HFA isn't important. It is. I just think we can win without those guys, if need be - thing is, I don't there will be a need. As for HFA playing a huge part in our exit last year, I don't think so. We were DOMINATING in Indy, as you know. I think the main problem was a defense that was injured all over the place, and some of whom had the flu. No excuse, you win or you lose, but HFA played a limited role compared to problems on D.
  18. shakadave

    shakadave Rookie

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    I'm with Ken here. We want Moss to do more than "just go long" every play, and practice makes perfect. I do think he will be/is a quick learner at least.

    By the way, we're not playing anyone important in the first 3 games, are we? (!)
  19. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    I don't think the issue here is preserving Moss. He has an injured hamstring and he needs to recover. I suspect the decision is the trainers', and Belichick is smart enough not to argue. What good is it if Moss practices, only to hurt himself so he can't play?

    On the other hand, I don't agree with patsox23. While HFA is overrated, the first round bye is not. We all saw what happens when a team goes into the conference championship after two consecutive playoff games. The better rested team has the edge, especially after halftime.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2007
  20. patpatriot

    patpatriot Banned

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    It's not HFA so much as a first round Bye that makes it much easier to get to the SB. Now granted it didn't work for the Bolts but I would argue that they suffered no meaningful injuries in getting their Bye; it was just a case of them not being experienced enough as a team...being too young is another way of putting it.

    That is not the Pats issue. It's rather the opposite in fact. They ran out of steam in Indy mostly because they had to play too much football to get as far as they did.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2007
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