Things I learned on Sunday

[patfanken]

....or more precisely, things that I already knew, but were reinforced.

Its taken me this long to get out of my Post Jets game funk. This won't be long, because in my absence, I'm sure most of the obvious NEGATIVE things have been discussed. However, as usual, please forgive me for any redundancies.

1. Deja vu - Was I the only one who noticed how much the Coles TD pass that sealed the game was so similar to the winning TD back in 2002. In both cases the ball was thrown to the same place in the endzone. In both cases as the ball was in the air it looked like it has as much chance of being a pick as a catch. In both cases the receiver was well covered. AND in both cases the ball goes through the defenders arms before reaching the receiver. Then when you add the facts that in both cases it was against the Jets. Both the last time the Pats lost 2 in a row. Both games are at Gillette. Both were the second game against the Jets... after the Pats beat the Jets at home early. Phew, now THAT is Deja Vu. You almost KNEW it was coming.

2. This game is just ANOTHER lesson that "on any given Sunday...." As I have stated on many occassions, the talent level on EVERY team is at a high level. No more that 10% separates the best from the worst IMHO, and a large part of that "difference" comes at QB. ALL the WRs are fast and remarkably athletic. All the OLmen are big, strong, and have quick feet. etc, etc, etc. IMHO it is the coaches and "systems" that each franchise has that ultimately makes the BIGGEST DIFFERENCE in the quality of the teams.

Does anyone think that if BB and his staff found themselves coaching the 53 players that now reside in Arizona that their record wouldn't be SIGNIFICANTLY better??? There is a lot of talent out there, but the record STILL is dismal

3. This is only the second time I really felt the Pats were outcoached in the BB regime. The Jets were almost Pats-like in their unconvential alignments and disguised defenses, while the Pats D looked rather static and vanilla. Whatever changes the Pats made, were seemingly countered by the Jets on both sides of the ball.

4. I am begining to wonder if the YEARS of success the Pats have had isn't wearing down that fine edge the Pats have had over the last 5 years. I'm NOT saying that the Pats are in decline, NOR am I saying the talent isn't there to be a contender this year. In fact I still believe that this is the most talented group the Pats have ever had.

No, what I am saying is that perhaps, at least last week, the Pats didn't really get up for a game against a team that it has beaten 7 times in a row. Perhaps, while they were giving them all the respect in the world in the media, they weren't really believing it in their hearts.

For the past 5 years the Pats' MENTAL TOUGHNESS has been legendary. I'm just wondering if keeping it going continually for 5 years hasn't worn some of it down. Is creeping complacency a potential problem, even short term. I don't think its a conscious thing, but more a function of their long term success?

5. Well I finally saw a FEW actual Play Action Passes on Sunday. I don't remember any being very successful, so maybe I was mistaken. However I am more convinced now that Brady is the reason we seem to eshew the PAP. I think HE believes that he can see the field better and get a quicker read by simply dropping back. He never looks completely comfortable doing a PAP, or at least AS comfortable as when he drops directly back. Maybe this is a aspect of his game he might want to work on NEXT year.

6. Tom wasn't the best QB on the field for the second week in a row. Several times his passes were off, even when they were caught. We lost a couple of 1st downs when errant passes were caught and tackles made because the receiver had to reach back for the ball, which if thrown better would allowed the YAC that would have gotten a first down. Conditions certainly weren't the best, but Pennington didn't seem to be bothered as much.

7. The other thing I seemed to notice isn't ANYONE'S fault. It just seems that lately the ball just isn't bouncing the Pats way. Take last week. Tipped balls are sometimes caught for interceptions, but MOST OF THE TIME, they drop harmlessly to the ground. Against the Colts, Brady had 3 deflected balls, and in ALL THREE were picked. One I could understand. Two is usually a matter of some good luck being involved, BUT THREE is just being UNLUCKY.

In a key moment early in the Jets game, Gabriel's fumble was a function of a good play by a Jet defender, but 9 times out of ten, that ball bounces OUT OF BOUNDS, but Sunday it stayed inbounds and it cost the Pats at a critical junction when they could have gone up 10 points on the Jets.

THIS ISN'T an excuse, its just an observation. Clearly the Pats have been the beneficiary of plays just like these mentioned. Because the league is so competitively close, we sometimes ignore how fickle the fates are in determining the outcome of games when the "bounces" don't even out during the course of a single game. I'm pretty sure they even out in the long term.

8. This week my beef with the coaches has less to do with the X's & O's and more to do with personel issues. In the first period several plays after Dillon's long run, the Pats had a second an 2 on the Jets 4 yd line. This is EXACTLY where Dillon has thrived this entire season. Instead Muroney goes sideways on a run and loses 2 yds, and Brady is sacked the next play and the Pats get only 3 and the Jet gain defensive momentum. IT WAS DILLON TIME and Corey was no where to be seen.

Also, like most I wondered why Seymour wasn't in the game in several critical goal line situations. I assumed he was either hurt, or ineffective because of his elbow. Clearly we will never know the truth, but I saw at least one replay where Richard was being knocked back.

9. On the Draft side - It almost hurt as much as the Jets loss, to see the Seahawks win ANOTHER CLOSE GAME. Damned.

BOTTOM LINE - it was game where the Jets took advantage of their bye, and the Pats seemed to overlook the Jets. Perhaps now the Pats will regain that Mental Toughness that got us to 3 superbowls. If not we'd better be prepared to eat a lot of crow. You know the "HATERS" have been waiting 5 years for a fall, that WE told them wasn't about to happen in the near future.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I think the Pats coaches used the Jets game as a chance to try out all their players in the false assumption that they would still win the game. And it was a close game. But the Pats were coaching pre-season style and Mangini was coaching the game of his life.

Mo's thread mentions the theory that the Pats are no longer changing up their personel packages during the game quarters and that this is the reason Dillon didn't go in to the line-up. I hope that the coaches soon see the lack of wisdom in this one size fits all approach. They do self scout and hopefully they will 'get it' soon enough to keep our season moving along.

I don't think that Pennington did much. His passes were lame duck tosses. But his WRs ran freely thru the secondary and were wide open on most 1st down conversions, and Pennington's floppy passes would have been picked off against, dare I say it, a better defense. But they owned the line of scrimmage and killed our QB while we didn't lay a finger on their QB.

 

[richpats]

3. This is only the second time I really felt the Pats were outcoached in the BB regime. The Jets were almost Pats-like in their unconvential alignments and disguised defenses, while the Pats D looked rather static and vanilla. Whatever changes the Pats made, were seemingly countered by the Jets on both sides of the ball.

The Pats have done disguised defenses for so long they may have simply ran out of looks that haven't been seen before. Or perhaps they are saving these new looks for an opponent down the road. If this were a playoff game Mangini would have been out of his league, but alas, it was week 10.

4. I am begining to wonder if the YEARS of success the Pats have had isn't wearing down that fine edge the Pats have had over the last 5 years. I'm NOT saying that the Pats are in decline, NOR am I saying the talent isn't there to be a contender this year. In fact I still believe that this is the most talented group the Pats have ever had.

No, what I am saying is that perhaps, at least last week, the Pats didn't really get up for a game against a team that it has beaten 7 times in a row. Perhaps, while they were giving them all the respect in the world in the media, they weren't really believing it in their hearts.

For the past 5 years the Pats' MENTAL TOUGHNESS has been legendary. I'm just wondering if keeping it going continually for 5 years hasn't worn some of it down. Is creeping complacency a potential problem, even short term. I don't think its a conscious thing, but more a function of their long term success?

Typically after a Pats loss, the next opponent is tough matchup, on the road more often than not. I believe the team really focuses at the task at hand and is able to take care of business the next week. Sunday we looked to recover against a team that we have overmatched for 4 years, at home no less. It was nearly a given that we would win, and maybe that's why we lost.

What we have to always remember is that every team we play still uses the Pats as a measuring stick for their success, and every team we play hasn't won anything in quite a while. Belichick, Brady - those are icons in this league, future Hall-of-Famers. What do you think it would do for a team to be able to beat those guys?

8. .... IT WAS DILLON TIME and Corey was no where to be seen.

I think the coaching staff has outsmarted themselves in these situations. There are obvious mismatches that we have the ability to exploit, yet do not. Why? Perhaps it's so plainly obvious that we would use Dillon in that situation that we go in a different direction (albeit a less effective one). Like in the Colts game - everybody knows we can blow away their crappy run D, but we're throwing downfield. Keeping them on their toes perhaps, but risking turnovers at the same time.

 

[Patfandango]

Another fine post , Ken. I agree that the talent difference is small between any given team and games are generally decided by a few key plays. In this case, the long drives by the Jets to score the TD after the fumble and to run off the clock in the 4th, and the pats not getting TDs twice inside the 5 yd line. What surprised me this week was that we seemed overmatched frequently on both sides of the line. I think that the absence of Graham and Neal on OL and Warren on DL hurt us all day. There was also a lot of movement by the Jets D so maybe the bye week and mangini's inside knowledge was used to good effect. Our strategy of taking what the defense gives can be fouled up if the D can morph during the play (like we have long done). Lots of bad bounces but we lucked out on the roughing the passer call that negated a killer INT. All in all, a disappointing loss but not a disaster. BB will use this for motivation. This one is over. On to Green Bay.

 

[mosi]

I think the Pats coaches used the Jets game as a chance to try out all their players in the false assumption that they would still win the game. And it was a close game. But the Pats were coaching pre-season style and Mangini was coaching the game of his life.
.

I think you have a point there. In 2002, the Pats were not in many of the games they lost. The Jets beat the crap out of them in 2002. The score may have been 30-17, but is was not that close. This game is one that we should have won, but did not. I have faith that come December, this team will be playing much better. I also feel confident that we can go in to any stadium and win.

 

[The Gr8est]

....or more precisely, things that I already knew, but were reinforced.

4. I am begining to wonder if the YEARS of success the Pats have had isn't wearing down that fine edge the Pats have had over the last 5 years. I'm NOT saying that the Pats are in decline, NOR am I saying the talent isn't there to be a contender this year. In fact I still believe that this is the most talented group the Pats have ever had.

On a slightly different angle, I have been thinking that some of this turnover of personnel is good and more may be necessary since I think some of them may be losing their hunger. So many of them have had so much success that they are just not hungry any more.

Also, with some of his off the field legal issues, I suspect BB may be more affected than he is letting on, and some of the younger coaches, ala McDaniel, are not able to pick him up.

In the big picture though, I am extremely optimistic about this team's future, they have been bringing in exceptional young talent and are poised to make a killing in the next draft, which is hopefully top heavy in defensive talent. This team is regrouping for another strong multi-year run at the top, albeit with a new generation of Patriots.

 

[captain stone]

....or more precisely, things that I already knew, but were reinforced.



1. Deja vu - Was I the only one who noticed how much the Coles TD pass that sealed the game was so similar to the winning TD back in 2002. In both cases the ball was thrown to the same place in the endzone. In both cases as the ball was in the air it looked like it has as much chance of being a pick as a catch. In both cases the receiver was well covered. AND in both cases the ball goes through the defenders arms before reaching the receiver. Then when you add the facts that in both cases it was against the Jets. Both the last time the Pats lost 2 in a row. Both games are at Gillette. Both were the second game against the Jets... after the Pats beat the Jets at home early. Phew, now THAT is Deja Vu. You almost KNEW it was coming.

I don't remember much about that Jest game from December '02, except that Troy fumbled a punt return, after which NJ scored a TD, and that Givens dropped a long pass near the end of the 1st half, during a drive in which 0 points were scored.

2. This game is just ANOTHER lesson that "on any given Sunday...." As I have stated on many occassions, the talent level on EVERY team is at a high level. No more that 10% separates the best from the worst IMHO, and a large part of that "difference" comes at QB. ALL the WRs are fast and remarkably athletic. All the OLmen are big, strong, and have quick feet. etc, etc, etc. IMHO it is the coaches and "systems" that each franchise has that ultimately makes the BIGGEST DIFFERENCE in the quality of the teams.

That's why the NFL is the best league - because it is a coaches' league, not a players' league.

3. This is only the second time I really felt the Pats were outcoached in the BB regime. The Jets were almost Pats-like in their unconvential alignments and disguised defenses, while the Pats D looked rather static and vanilla. Whatever changes the Pats made, were seemingly countered by the Jets on both sides of the ball.

The pats were outcoached, outQBed, outhustled...yet still should have won.
The bye week helped the Jest, immeasureably. Without it, they probably lose.



For the past 5 years the Pats' MENTAL TOUGHNESS has been legendary. I'm just wondering if keeping it going continually for 5 years hasn't worn some of it down. Is creeping complacency a potential problem, even short term. I don't think its a conscious thing, but more a function of their long term success?

I don't question the mental toughness of the grizzled vets. I question the mental toughness of those who have been in the league, all with the pats, since 2001.

5. Well I finally saw a FEW actual Play Action Passes on Sunday. I don't remember any being very successful, so maybe I was mistaken. However I am more convinced now that Brady is the reason we seem to eshew the PAP. I think HE believes that he can see the field better and get a quicker read by simply dropping back. He never looks completely comfortable doing a PAP, or at least AS comfortable as when he drops directly back. Maybe this is a aspect of his game he might want to work on NEXT year.

Eschewing the PAP, esp. in short-yardage situations, is a sign of arrogance, laziness, or stupidity. Or some/all of the above. With the talent so evenly distributed, offenses must rely on deception now more than ever.

6. Tom wasn't the best QB on the field for the second week in a row. Several times his passes were off, even when they were caught. We lost a couple of 1st downs when errant passes were caught and tackles made because the receiver had to reach back for the ball, which if thrown better would allowed the YAC that would have gotten a first down. Conditions certainly weren't the best, but Pennington didn't seem to be bothered as much.

It is beyond obvious that TB no longer likes to play in the slop, esp. when he is still learning his WRs' tendencies, which become less precise due to the field conditions. If Branch and Givens were still here, then those conditions matter less.

Clearly the Pats have been the beneficiary of plays just like these mentioned. Because the league is so competitively close, we sometimes ignore how fickle the fates are in determining the outcome of games when the "bounces" don't even out during the course of a single game. I'm pretty sure they even out in the long term.

That's why players are told to finish every block, wrap up every tackle, get hands in the air, hang onto the ball - because you never know which play/s will change a game.

8. This week my beef with the coaches has less to do with the X's & O's and more to do with personel issues. In the first period several plays after Dillon's long run, the Pats had a second an 2 on the Jets 4 yd line. This is EXACTLY where Dillon has thrived this entire season. Instead Muroney goes sideways on a run and loses 2 yds, and Brady is sacked the next play and the Pats get only 3 and the Jet gain defensive momentum. IT WAS DILLON TIME and Corey was no where to be seen.

Maybe he was still too winded from his 50-yard run. OTOH, they just needed a lousy 2 yards. Suck it up and get out there.

Also, like most I wondered why Seymour wasn't in the game in several critical goal line situations. I assumed he was either hurt, or ineffective because of his elbow. Clearly we will never know the truth, but I saw at least one replay where Richard was being knocked back.

Either he was hurting, or a message was being sent. Either way, $eemore is not earning his $$. Not even close.

9. On the Draft side - It almost hurt as much as the Jets loss, to see the Seahawks win ANOTHER CLOSE GAME. Damned.

Every team who I wanted to lose, won. Every effin one. More proof that there is no God.

BOTTOM LINE - it was game where the Jets took advantage of their bye, and the Pats seemed to overlook the Jets. Perhaps now the Pats will regain that Mental Toughness that got us to 3 superbowls. If not we'd better be prepared to eat a lot of crow. You know the "HATERS" have been waiting 5 years for a fall, that WE told them wasn't about to happen in the near future.

Thanks to these last 2 weeks, I haven't listened to any of the Haters on national sports radio. I can only imagine about what that wussy Greenberg must be chirping. Eff'em all.

 

[Mike the Brit]

I don't think that Pennington did much. His passes were lame duck tosses. But his WRs ran freely thru the secondary and were wide open on most 1st down conversions, and Pennington's floppy passes would have been picked off against, dare I say it, a better defense. But they owned the line of scrimmage and killed our QB while we didn't lay a finger on their QB.

I strongly disagree with this.

From where I sat, many of Pennington's passes were things of beauty, looped just over defenders to where only the receiver could catch them (especially true of passes to Coles). Not just that, but Pennington threw a couple of long passes that were very nearly caught for seven, as I recall.

 

[363839]

I strongly disagree with this.

From where I sat, many of Pennington's passes were things of beauty, looped just over defenders to where only the receiver could catch them (especially true of passes to Coles). Not just that, but Pennington threw a couple of long passes that were very nearly caught for seven, as I recall.

Coles only got 29 yards on 5 catches.
Disapointment from a fantasy standpoint.

 

[p8ryts]

I think the Pats thought they had the game won by walking on the field. They didn't have a lot of emotion. They have one or two of these clunkers every year. It is hard to maintain the hunger. This team doesn't quite have it yet but I imagine the Jets blow to their pride will get them up to par for GB. I expect a good effort this week and a win. If not, then we do have some troubles and I don't know what they are. I'm not blaming receivers, they looked ok last week and in fact we need to reduce our effort to force the ball to TE's and go back to the offense of years past. We have been a passing team and run draws, screens and runs to keep the defense honest. I also think the RB's don't get the flow of the game. Dillon, Maroney and Faulk are not in long enough to develop a rhythm.

 

[shakadave]

No, what I am saying is that perhaps, at least last week, the Pats didn't really get up for a game against a team that it has beaten 7 times in a row. Perhaps, while they were giving them all the respect in the world in the media, they weren't really believing it in their hearts.

I hope with a passion that this is right, because it means we're still Super Bowl quality. I hope it's not the case that our defense just got too old. Surely the Ty Warren factor was huge in why the Jets could go on 80-yard drives.

8. This week my beef with the coaches has less to do with the X's & O's and more to do with personel issues. In the first period several plays after Dillon's long run, the Pats had a second an 2 on the Jets 4 yd line. This is EXACTLY where Dillon has thrived this entire season. Instead Muroney goes sideways on a run and loses 2 yds, and Brady is sacked the next play and the Pats get only 3 and the Jet gain defensive momentum. IT WAS DILLON TIME and Corey was no where to be seen.

Did you see Dillon get caught from behind on his 50-yard romp? He is now unbelievably slow. He was the 1961 pickup truck with a rake sticking out the back that drifted into the fast lane of Route 128. Not a criticism, just an observation. But his pursuer was as much faster than him, as when a defensive tackle gets caught by a wide receiver.

9. On the Draft side - It almost hurt as much as the Jets loss, to see the Seahawks win ANOTHER CLOSE GAME. Damned.

Indeed. This is a huge subplot of the 2006 season, and we keep getting rotted. They must have a great kicker. We'll be picking 29th.

. .. ... ....

 

[BelichickFan]

No, what I am saying is that perhaps, at least last week, the Pats didn't really get up for a game against a team that it has beaten 7 times in a row

I'm not a player but I wasn't up for the game at all. Most big games I'm fired up, this game I was relaxed and taking it easy because I knew we should win.

And as I said in another thread, if you look at the average play of average drive we did outplay them. Unfortuntely while the Patriots are usually the team that makes the big play and doesn't make the big mistake, this game was the opposite. The jesters made the play when they needed it and the Patriots made the big mistakes at the worst times. For two weeks in a row.

Did you see Dillon get caught from behind on his 50-yard romp? He is now unbelievably slow.

I don't know what was up with that, if he is really that slow or if he didn't realize there was NO-ONE there. It was the worst big run I've ever seen, though.

9. On the Draft side - It almost hurt as much as the Jets loss, to see the Seahawks win ANOTHER CLOSE GAME. Damned.

Indeed. This is a huge subplot of the 2006 season, and we keep getting rotted. They must have a great kicker. We'll be picking 29th.

We won't be picking 29th, the Seahawks have 3 losses and will very likely lose to the Broncos and Chargers. If they lose one other, that's 6 and should get us in the 24-25 range. It's a shame, as bad as the Patriots' division and schedule is, the Seahawks' make ours look tough.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I strongly disagree with this.

From where I sat, many of Pennington's passes were things of beauty, looped just over defenders to where only the receiver could catch them (especially true of passes to Coles). Not just that, but Pennington threw a couple of long passes that were very nearly caught for seven, as I recall.

And I strongly disagree with this.

On slow motion replay, his passes looked like floppy crap and the announcers seemed to think that a few of them should have been picked off. They kept asking how Penny could dare to make such easily picked off throws, and they questioned his judgement even on the passes that worked, because a lot of them would have been ill advised against a ball hawking defense. Remember that Hobbs had the chance to intercept the touchdown winning pass.

Penny is nothing special, but with our current defensive line up and the way we leave WRs virtually uncovered in our secondary, anybody could tear thru us.

 

[PatsFan37]

BB has often said that you can't compare one team (say, 2002) to another. They are all different. And you don't the character of this year's team until mid-season.

It's mid-season and we still don't know.

This is a team that embarrassed the Bengals and Vikings, but was embarrassed at home by Denver and the Jets. The Colts is a tossup -- best team in the league at their best time, and the Pats were still in the game despite 5 TO's.

The next two weeks will say a lot about this year's team, because I still don't know who they are. I don't doubt their ability to beat every team in the league, but they don't consistently put it together. If there is such a thing as team chemistry, it doesn't seem as strong as year's past.