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These should be the healthcare talking points

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Aug 14, 2009.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The right wing has shown us that distortion works. They have the cynicism and dishonesty needed to push distortions, i.e., their lies about death panels, horrors of socialized medicine, and the gov choosing your doctors for you -- so those who support national health care should distort as well. Here are my suggestions.

    With national health care:

    - You'll live longer. (Based on the fact that both the French and Japanese live longer.)
    - It will feel like a tax cut. (Based on the fact that national health care plans have a per capita cost that's half of what we pay.)
    - The federal deficit will decline. (Based on the fact that the pharmaceuticals have agreed to spend $80 billion to help defray the cost of national health care.)
    - You'll be able to sign up for your favorite healthcare plan, even Medicare. (Based on the fact that the public option will be available to everyone.)
    - Diseases like cancer and diabetes will be cured faster. (Based on the fact that access to info for research purposes will be streamlined by standardizing record-keeping systems.)
    - It puts the power in your hands, rather than in the hands of an insurance company's death panel.
    - It will revitalize one of the great American industries, the insurance industry. (Based on the idea that they'll be screwed if they don't do something.)
  2. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    National health care is the fountain of youth. You'll never get sick you'll never age and die. Of course that means that we'll have to reduce the number of births to accommodate all those that live forever.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2009
  3. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    I'm sorry Patters but you could NEVER be a neo con thinker your to realistic. Your just speaking the truth in what you have put up here. Its not outragious enough, i don't see any wild and crazy lies in your post.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2009
  4. godef

    godef Rookie

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    Are you stating these points as fact? In which case, these would be the ideal results, but none of this has happened yet and no one can prove that it will happen, only discuss the liklihood. Like anything else (such as the economy) such things take time to prove themselves out if at all.

    Or just you just presenting your opinions on what you consider reasonable debate points on universal healthcare? In which case, this is a rather short list which could be added to.

    I liked where you started going with this, but I think you need more clarity.
  5. godef

    godef Rookie

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    You sly dog, you. :cool:
  6. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thats Obama talking, I don't trust him and I'm not alone.
  7. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    How about:

    The morons that dragged us into Iraq in '03 and did nothing while New Orleans flooded are dead set against it.

    Oh wait I'm supposed to make stuff up. Ok,

    Everyone will be covered under Obama's Plan except the Yankees and Jets.
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think the Democrats need to play the same game as the righties. State as fact things that are somewhat subjective. Yes, of course, there's not guarantee that people will live longer if we have national health care, but claiming that people will live longer is at least as honest as claiming that national health care will lead to the government deciding whether you'll live or die.
  9. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Those are excellent talking points Patters. The problem is though, that's all they are. Mere talking points.
  10. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    #95 Jersey

    Let me address that one point. The question is what did the Administration promise to get the support of big pharma? If as reported in Huffington Post, it was a ban on the import of drugs from Canada and a refusal of the gov't to use its clout as a purchaser to get drug companies to lower prices, the American people are losers and it will cost more. On a micro level if you pay more for your non-imported meds, it's costing you more..... If the gov't doesn't get the drug comppanies to lower their price by buying bulk, it costs you more......
    I don't know if this will cause the deficit to decline but it will mean less discretionary spending buy having to spend more on meds that doesn't have to be spent. And I don't want to be turned into a criminal if I were to purchase cholesterol or blood pressure meds from north of the border with a valid presecription.(if I were taking any prescription meds)
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2009
  11. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Make that the Yankees, Jets and Congress. For some reason they don't think it will be as good for them as they do for everyone else. So selfless of them.
  12. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    #95 Jersey

    And secondly, if your premise is true (that it will feel like a tax cut) it implies that you think that the per capita spending will decline to that of the countries that have NHS. For that to happen it would require less money to be spent on the US overall health care system. The only way that will happen is to cut the number of jobs or stop hospital purchases of new better technology. The end result of both will be higher unemplyment and fewer jobs.
    If you want to argue that you only want to slow the growth or freeze it, it ill take many years for the per capita spending of the US to match those countries with universal care unless you cut demand and the only way to do that is to limit or ration care.........
  13. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    #95 Jersey

    Thirdly, I think that's a big leap of faith there. The problem with the standardized record keeping is the privacy aspect. When your doctor writes it down in your record, the only people who see it are the eyes in his office or an insurance company if you apply for insurance. If you standardized electronic records and put it online, it opens up the potential for all sorts of inappropriate intrusion (think of those people who accessed Brady's info on police computers). Already hospitals are firing people left and right for looking at celebrity's hospital records. (Cedar Sinai's in LA for example IIRC).
    There is a 'big brother' feel to it and I said that several years ago when Republican's suggested it so it's more of a personal privacy issue than a political one for me. Think of the potential for mistakes and what would happen if a number is transposed or entered incorrectly............
    Lastly the introduction of new technology always has a learning curve that slows down efficiency initially and there is the associated costs of introducing new technology. You'l save on paper (minimal cost) but you have to have blackberrys and uploading of info over secured networks and the time associated with that as well as th erisk of a crash and lost data not present with paper records. How do you prevent alteration of electronic records? With paper records the ink used is changed on a yearly basis with different additives so a forensic analysis can detect records altered years later.
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think, as we do now, we'll each of the option of opting out of allowing our records to be shared. Most people don't care. When you signed up with your doctor, you should have been given a form that granted him/her permission to share your information with other doctors to serve you. Certainly, even among those who are very privacy conscious, I do not think that that describes your health as confidential, unless it includes some real identifying info (such as your name, address, SS#, etc.)

    Your info is already shared in hundreds of ways -- checks, credit card statements, and the internet web sites you visit, and potentially even much of your private email. Chances are, if the political elite wanted to go after someone, they'd have better luck there than with medical records. As far as transposing numbers incorrectly, that can happen regardless, but at least standardized record keeping will result in more skilled employees and easy ways to checks for errors.

    Of course, anything can happen, and there are certainly cases where doctors to cover their mistakes altered records or threw them out. As far as data being lost, it's probably safer electronically than it is on paper, where it probably will not be backed up and can be subject to fire, mildew, and the damage of time. Electronic info is backed up and backed up again, and usually secured in multiple places in secured facilities. It would be very difficult to alter backup files. But, even so, the number of shenanigans that happen is very small. Are you really worried about this? You could put your medical records directly in front of 99.99% of people, and I doubt if they'd even want to look at them.
  15. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    #95 Jersey

    Actually that's not entirely true. you're thinking about the HIPAA privacy form that every office says won't misuse your information. It started because pharmacies were buying lists of
    rxs and calling people. "Mr. Smith wouldn't you like to get Lipitor instead of Zocor."........
    It applies to the office but once information is sent outside the office, anything goes. You are absolutely right about information being 'out there' for anyone to misuse. My point was, why give out any more than necessary. I always change my birthdate when asked for it online and have always intentionally misspelled my name online in different ways so when I get an email or snail mail I know where it originated....
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not too worried about anyone wanting my info, and I too use a few different methods to protect my identity. But, by and large, I've bought lots of stuff over the internet, signed up for lots of things, use email, do online banking, get any prescriptions, and so on over the internet. So far, I've had nothing serious happen.

    I do believe that standardized systems have a greater chance of building firewalls and procedures to protect privacy and data integrity than to have a hodgepodge like we do now. But, again, I think most people don't worry that much about privacy because, frankly, no one really wants to know about their medical history, and chances are if they did it would be because they were given good reason. That said, there are some crooks out there and one has to be somewhat vigilant. I look at privacy as a matter of numbers. The odds of someone choosing to invade my privacy are about as great as my winning a big lottery, and considering I rarely buy tickets, those odds are very remote.
  17. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    #95 Jersey

    Last edited: Aug 15, 2009
  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That really sucks, so I understand where you're coming from. A few years ago, a colleague of mine went through the same thing and found it very stressful. There seems to be no easy way to undo identity theft.
  19. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    #95 Jersey

    It's more common than you think with upwards of 10 million victims estimated in 2008

    2009 Identity Theft Statistics | SPENDonLIFE

    better odds than winning with that lottery ticket you never buy....
  20. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    Are you serious Patters, how are death panels based in fact in any way shape or form even subjectivly?

    How is the birth cirtificate Controverse grounded in act in any way?

    How are mandatory sex changes grounded in fact in any manner?

    At least two of the three i've listed have no factual bases, or could be subjectivly construed as being a real posibility.

    There just wild fabrictions like "If you have national health care you'll NEVER get sick".
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2009

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