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There must be something to it if the mob shouts it down

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Fogbuster, Apr 12, 2008.

  1. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    From where do humans and all other creatures get their intelligence?? From the "Big Bang"? From "chance"? By "random event"?? Some people think that such explanations are much too incomplete and far too convenient, giving chaos and violence too much acceptance. From where do we get the desire for self-control?? To control our environment? Is it all just an "accident"?? The discussion has just hit the stage near you.


    [size=+4]Stein Goes to Bat for Intelligent Design[/size]

    "I am floored by what a response it got," Ben Stein, the actor, author, and former White House speechwriter for President Nixon, said in his signature monotone on the phone from Chicago. Mr. Stein was referring to the effusive feedback that he and producers Logan Craft, Walt Ruloff, and John Sullivan have received from advance screenings of a new feature-length documentary hosted by Mr. Stein entitled "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed."

    In "Expelled," which opens April 18, the iconically blasé teacher from "Ferris Bueller's Day Off" and the host of "Win Ben Stein's Money" has been recast as the driving personality and first-person narrator of a Michael Moore-style documentary confronting a contemporary scientific status quo that harbors a zero-tolerance policy for the theory of intelligent design in scientific research and American classrooms. According to the film's Web site, "educators and scientists are being ridiculed, denied tenure, and even fired for the 'crime' of merely believing that there might be evidence of 'design' in nature, and that perhaps life is not just the result of accidental, random chance."

    The film's producers define intelligent design, somewhat tautologically, as "a theory that attempts to empirically detect if the apparent design in nature acknowledged by virtually all biologists is genuine design or the product of an intelligent cause." On the other hand, Richard Dawkins, the Oxford evolutionary biologist, avowed atheist, and author of "The God Delusion," describes intelligent design as "creationism in a cheap tuxedo," and he spars with Mr. Stein onscreen in "Expelled." In a recent Web log entry, Mr. Dawkins dismissed "Expelled," a screening of which he attended in somewhat contentious fashion at the Mall of America this past Good Friday (his fellow on-screen commentator, P.Z. Myers, was ejected from the same screening), as "dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed, and utterly devoid of any style, wit, or subtlety." The conservative contrarian Rush Limbaugh saw the same film with different eyes. "It is powerful. It is fabulous," he declared on his syndicated radio show.

    Mr. Stein became involved with the film when he was approached by Messrs. Ruloff and Sullivan during pre-production. "They sent me an absolute torrent of information, some of which I read, some of which frankly I did not read," Mr. Stein said. Intrigued by what he did absorb and by a segment of computer animation commissioned by the producers that depicts life at a cellular level in its nearly infinite complexity, Mr. Stein signed on. "It just became a gigantically bigger project than I even had the slightest clue it was going to be," he said.

    http://www2.nysun.com/article/74583




    [size=+4]Expelled from 'Expelled'[/size]
    Posted: April 10, 2008
    1:00 am Eastern

    © 2008

    On April 18, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed," will boast the largest U.S. opening of any documentary film ever.

    Scheduled for release in 1,000 theatres, "Expelled" will be hotter than "Farenheit 9/11," which debuted on 868 screens, and much more convenient to see than "An Inconvenient Truth," which I was surprised to find opened on only four screens nationwide despite all the hype, peaking at 587 before its appeal melted.

    What's "Expelled" about? Synopsizes CNS News:

    "Expelled" calls attention to the plight of highly credentialed scholars who have been forced out of prestigious academic positions because they proposed Intelligent Design as a possible alternative to Charles Darwin's 150-year-old theories about the origins of life. {Wow!!! Talk about running scared!!!:D}

    Instead of entertaining a debate on the merits of competing theories, the scientific establishment has moved to suppress the ID movement in a "systematic and ruthless" way at odds with America's founding principles, the film asserts.

    Liberals have been going ape about "Expelled" for months as it has been screened around the country.


    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=61134


    //

    On March 20, two Darwinian defenders, who accepted payment to talk like buffoons on the film, tried to bust into a private screening in Minnesota.
  2. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    .

    By the way, two long-time Unificationists participated in making this film: Dr. Jon Wells and Mr. Larry Witham. Dr. Wells holds two doctorates: a Ph.D. from University of Cal., Berkeley, in Micro-biology, and a Th.D. from Yale University Divinity School. Larry Witham, along with Dr. Wells, hold masters degrees from the Unification Theological Seminary, and were one graduating class ahead of me. Larry Witham was for about 15 years the Religion Editor for the Washington Times.


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  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Intelligent Design is an incredibly idiotic theory. At trial in Dover, PA, their top expert admitted that the exact same logic used to justify ID as a science would also justify astrology as a science. Add to that that ID can be used to support the idea of God or the idea of an alien race, and it just gets silly. Add to that the overwhelming evidence of evolution, and ID can seen as a transparent attempt at foisting religion on us. Add to that the specific arguments of ID, such as the odds of life being created, have been refuted by mathematics (which show that at each stage of development, the odds of something happening are quite reasonable), and ID does not have a leg to stand on. Add to that that at the Dover, PA trial, ID "scientists" admitted that ID was too young to have effective scientific methods of testing the theory and that ID has no or virtually no peer reviewed studies, and ID becomes laughable.
  4. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yea that gives it a lot of credibility, what did they get their masters in Pure Love?? You must feel inadequate, wasting away in Vilnius, and they are on the big screen.
  5. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Somehow I don't think you will be laughing so much in a hundred years, if you still have the same attitude you show here.


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  6. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Yuk, yuk. Some day you won't be saying this.


    :singing:

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  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I've read a lot on ID, and there's nothing to it. It doesn't disprove evolution and, as an alternative theory, is not convincing. As far as 100 years from now, I feel quite certain everyone in this forum will be in roughly the same place.
  8. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

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    To be fair (speaking as someone who spent quite a bit of time in various physical Anthropology classes) there are a lot of issues with evolution, and Darwinism in particular (gaps in the fossil record, evolution doubling back, false evolution...).

    That said, evolution is rather like democracy: it's the worst form of government...do I need to finish the sentence?
    LOL.

    And just to clarify, I'm basically agreeing (shudder) with Patters, just sort of adding a flourish.
    :D
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2008
  9. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

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    In a hundred years--with any luck at all--you and I will both be dead. All that will be left of me (probably) will be the body left to science, if they still do that then.

    So I don't care what his attitude will be in 100 years.

    And if your beliefs are true, in 100 years you'll be dead and in Heaven or Las Vegas or wherever, laughing at the rest of us, so what do you care?
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, I suppose there's hope for you after all. ;)

    At any rate, from what I've read, those who believe in evolution have good explanations for the mysteries. For instance, gaps in the fossil record are explained by the fact that every year new discoveries are made that help fill in those gaps. IDers also cite one or two complex parts of animals that seem to have just appeared without rhyme or reason, such as flagellum, but the evolutionists have shown how the components of the flagellum did serve minor purposes and evolved to serve a more important purpose. As far as evolution doubling back, I would guess that could be explained by climate shifts or disease where certain evolutionary advancements became unnecessary.

    I honestly have yet to find one convincing aspect to ID. They do find a couple of anomalies (such as, is trilobyte eyes?), but even there evolutionists have reasonable theories.
  11. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    The essential difference between ID and today's EvTheory is that ID says a higher intelligence is behind the universe we see; ET says it's all an accident. Bottom line is: God of creation or No God of creation. If we say there is No God of creation then life is just a pragmatic game based on random chance existence that boils down to being centered separately on each individual; under that scenario there will never be the peaceful ideal world of harmony that everybody dreams about (at least for some period of their lives). With God, on the other hand, it becomes a matter of delving into the underlying principles of life, which involves necessarily the Invisible world of Cause as well as the Visible world of Effect.

    Without God and the eternal invisible world of cause there is no hope for peace, and people can/do just live for themselves, with no regard whatsoever for others. But if there is a God and an eternal world, then we need to adhere to the principles of life in that world, just as we adhere to the physical principles by which all physical beings operate. Though there has been eternal world (spirit world) teachings and studies throughout human history, none of it has been firmly established as commonly accepted and clearly explained law that applies to every one all of the time. Once that is done, then nobody will be able to claim ignorance or seek an escape from the reality they face.

    In other words, the world of our spirit is about to be revealed and explained as never before, because the times demand it. What people like Christ Jesus and many others, such as Emmanuel Swedenborg, have spoken of is about to be elucidated far beyond any to date.

    Today's ID debate is only the first step; it is crude and touches only the most basic of concepts; it's like hearing a lecture on molecular biology when you really want to know about how people get brown hair. It's very elemental and crude, but it is fundamentally sound. You will hearing a lot more about it from now. Nobody can shut it up any more than the flat-earth society or the sun-revolves-around-the-earth clubs could silence the truth we all know well today.

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  12. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

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    And you just asked me when you were posting about God?
  13. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Believeth In What Ye Will

    When Thou Closeth Thine Eyes
    For Last Time Thou Will
    Knoweth The Truth

    Do Not Try To Change Thy Fellow Man
    If he So Chooses To Not Believe
    F-ck Him
  14. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

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    Didst thou useth a large enough fonteth?
  15. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    You know they just invented a new device: it's called the "change the screen" button. It works quite well: see something on the net you don't like, you click away from it. Somebody got a Nobel Prize for it.


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  16. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Thou speaketh deep medicine, HB. I just cannot rest knowing that so many are going to find out too late. You know what I mean, I'm sure.


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  17. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, Fog, if ID was convincing, I would argue that we were created by aliens, not by God. Even if you accept ID, it does not prove the existence of God, it simply proves the existence of a superior intelligence. Most likely liberals from another plant. ;)

    And ID is not fundamentally sound unless you believe that things like astrology are also fundamentally sound.

    Behe is one of the leading IDers. Check out this link:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8178
  18. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    You can joke around the issue all you want, but the fact is that their is a Creator. That Creator is good. That Creator gave freedom to the creation, and some of the creation has mis-used that freedom, like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. Does not work. So, who must realize and solve this problem?? The highest of the creation: human beings. And once solved, all human beings have to get on board; there can be no leeway for contradiction within the creation. Cannot be.


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  19. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

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    The ghost of William F. Buckley, more likely.
    ;) yourself.

    :D
  20. otis p. driftwood

    otis p. driftwood Rookie

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    And see that you remember it, Fogster.

    When you pass up commenting on stuff, I'll consider it.

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