Then vs. Now: The Ring Years vs. 2005 and Beyond

Discussion in ' - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PatsWickedPissah, Nov 16, 2009.

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  1. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah Supporter Supporter

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    Pats fans have been blessed by several SuperBowl winning teams and a cast of excellent players and smart coaching this decade. Yet, since the 2004 season the NE Patriots have come up short time and again when the game and the season was on the line. What are some of the key features of the trophy machine pre-2005 squads ?

    1. A large core of playmakers on defense. How many games were either won or late game leads preserved against comeback drives by key, clutch plays by a core of players? Law, Bruschi, Harrison, OTIS, Vrable. Victories snatched from defeat as opponents' ending drives were stifled by a D playmaker. You never knew which one would step forward but you knew that one of them would get it done.

    2. A group of unspectacular but reliable playmakers on offense. Brady has been the constant but the trophy seasons featured key 3rd down conversions by Faulk, Troy Brown, David (1st down on 3rd down) Givens and yes, by the excerable Twig. These unspectacular players were not weekly ESPN highlight roll feature players but they were always reliable in extending a drive when it absolutely had to be extended. They made their appearance known when it really counted.

    3. A go to ground game. Antowain Smith wasn't much but he did give us a ground game that got 2-3 yds when it absolutely HAD to get done. Time after time, the Pats also were able to piss away the clock on long ground based though unspectacular drives. Those two different aspects of the run game were key to holding back the enemy. All this before the 2004 Dillon SB team.

    4. Experienced coordinators who made the right calls at the right time. Even the SB winning teams had coordinators who had their constant detractors and like all humans they made mistakes, but when the right call had to be made, it got made.

    5. Special Teams that made a difference. Whether it was a Troy Brown punt return, a kick return for a TD or STs causing a fumble, the SB years were replete with big ST contributions that put points on the board enabling an unspectular offense to outscore the opponents.

    6. Good fortune. Fans forget that several bounces of the ball and fortuitous events occured during those seasons at key times. Remember the 'unconscious' reception vs the Bills? :) As can be seen during the post 2005 painfull big loses, games often pivot on a key play where good fortune favors the opponent.

    It's amazing in retrospect to see all the different but essential ingredients combined in the trophy winning machine.

    I like the youth movement in the 2009 Pats D, but the jury is out on whether the crew contains big game playmakers, difference makers who alter the outcome.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  2. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker Supporter Supporter

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    I agree 100%. I think the biggest difference is twofold, and unfortunately all falls on BB's shoulders. I love BB, and will always cherish the Pats Dynasty he helped create, he deserves a huge amount of credit, but also deserves the blame for it's demise. It's a case of poor management since 2005. Bad drafts, bad free agent signings, bad coaching (4th and 2 will go down in the history of football as one of the worst calls of all time).

    When the Pats were on top of the world, a lot of their success came from Free Agent signings mixed in with good drafting. This holds true on both sides of the ball, especially our defense. McGinnest, Law, Bruschi, Pat's draftees mixed in with Vrabel & Harrison, Free Agents, was an incredible mix, that was always clutch from 2001-2004. Guys signed later like Colvin and Adalius Thomas never became the stars they were on their previous teams, and despite some small signs of brilliance, they are quite frankly busts in the Pats system.

    Add to that, a mixed bag of Free Agents and draftees in the secondary, and our defense is not as clutch or frankly, as good as in the championship years. No killer instict, no playmakers, no pass rush. On offense, our chance for a championship in 2006 was squashed by poor management again, them thinking the clutch Branch and Givens could be replaced by terrible low level free agent WR's.

    Who would have thought, that in our three losses, the OTHER teams coaches would be making the 2nd half adjustments we always made to win games, instead of the mad scientist/genious BB. All three losses we had a halftime lead, and gave up 47 points while only scoring a grand total of 10 points.

    I think the difference between the Pats now, and the Pats during the championship years, is poor management (coaching calls, drafts, free agents) and a bad pass rush, hence the twofold I mention. And I blame BB for both. Obviously the draft and free agency in the offseason, a pass rush is the main priority. It will make our secondary better (we do have some talent there), and it will cause turnovers and confusion. They also must improve in selecting free agents and draft choices. There have been some terrible drafts the last few years (2006 especially), and the Pats have missed the boat on several players that obviously would have made them better.

    I am proud of this team, for staying competetive basically for the whole decade, that's quite an achievement. 3 SB championships & 5 AFC Championship games, is quite an accomplishment, and BB and Pioli and the rest, should be very proud. But to keep the franchise going forward, things must change and fast.
  3. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar In the Starting Line-Up

    #87 Jersey

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    The playmakers on defense from the SB years were the difference. They're gone and still waiting for the new ones to step up. I believe their there, they just need to gain confidence. I'm hoping the fact that BB went for it on 4th and 2 instilled a fire in these guys so they begin to stand up and make the key plays at the key moments.

    I wouldn't close the book on this team yet, I think they have the potential to win 2 more Super Bowls.

    PATSYLICIOUS Pro Bowl Player

    #12 Jersey

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    This league is built towards parity. FA, salary cap, coaching staffs getting raided. It's very very hard to maintain what you have especially when you consider the age factor. I think we're still doing great considering the task. Timing has also been an issue. In the '06 and '07 elimination games, if Brady had just 1 more minute or so the outcomes could have been different. In the SB years we had the same defensive breakdowns late but there was always enough time for Brady.

    And you can only beat a great QB like Manning so many times before he figures you out. Maybe pretty soon we will be seeing the same from Big Ben and Rivers.
  5. man2reg87

    man2reg87 Banned

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    Oh how the table has tuned. the Patriots* always said Belichick was in Peyton's head. After the bone head call 4th and 2 on the 28 up by six 2 minutes.....looks like Peyton is in Belichicks head now. Old Belichick KNOWS who is the greatest qb of all time. With the tables turned and NO video cameras..........just sayin'
  6. BlitzFritz

    BlitzFritz Third String But Playing on Special Teams

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    great thread. i've pondered this too.

    another factor linked to the lack of defensive the rule changes favoring receivers that were instituted. much harder to game plan against a Peyton Manning now.

    but i like your points too.

    either something is missing now. or we were extraordinarily lucky back then.
  7. BadMoFo

    BadMoFo Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    Well, it was nice knowing you.
  8. robertweathers

    robertweathers Pro Bowl Player

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    Since 2005, the team has gone 55-18, made the playoffs 3 of 4 years going 5-3 and a SB appearance.

    Yes, the sucess does not match 2001-2004., but it's pretty damn good.

    This team is not done.
  9. Disco Volante

    Disco Volante Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #12 Jersey

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    I think it really comes down to luck.

    We've been in the position to win a SB w/ Brady each year since...

    2005: Brady throws a rare red zone INT @ Denver. Colts also eliminated that round, meaning the Pats would have hosted the AFC Championship game vs. Steelers.
    2006: 21-3 AFC Championship Game lead blown.
    2007: 18-1.
    2008: Brady injured, don't count

    This season is still in progress and I expect us to be in position to win it all once again, it will come down to one or two plays as usual. I just hope it's another team that is pondering over the "What could of been..." instead of us this time around.
  10. Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    Aside from a lack of talent on defense, it's the assistant coaches/coordinators that are costing the Pats the game. For example, their red zone offense is extremely irritating. Why do they constantly have to pass first on 1st and goal? In goal situations, they run maybe once per trip. Unless they're at the 1-2 yard line, they'll run the football. I really miss McDaniels and Weiss right now.

    Since the rule change, the Pats are 1-5 against the Colts (including playoffs).
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  11. Xzibit23

    Xzibit23 On the Game Day Roster

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    I think it primarily comes down to the defense not having the same playmakers combined with bad luck. Its not rational to claim the '07-'09 offense with Moss and Welker hasn't been as productive or as good, when the numbers and evidence suggest the opposite. That's like the Yankee fans who wanted Brosius at 3B instead of Alex Rodriguez simply because the Brosius teams won the WS.
  12. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    Prolly the most important of the bunch.....

    Every time we get so much as a inking of talent at the coordinator level, they are gone. We've been getting annually raped in this for the past 4-5 year. BB has to do TOO much, because every time he begins to develop anyone, particularly a play caller, they are gone the next season.
  13. bostonia3333

    bostonia3333 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    Now we know what it feels like to be an early 2000s Colts fan. It sure is not a fun thing. If anything, talk show radio has become relevant in Boston once again.
  14. patsinthesnow

    patsinthesnow Supporter Supporter

    #87 Jersey

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    This is the second time we got a mega lead on a super colts team and got TIMID ON OFFENSE AGAIN! If Moss is beating 60 yard bombs, and your gashing the defense, keep doing it!!!!:mad:
  15. BionicPatriot

    BionicPatriot In the Starting Line-Up

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    I think coaching has a lot to do with it. Offense inparticular. Outside of the red zone, they can never get the tough yards.

    Every big loss, although there has been a defensive melt down, the offense didn't do its job either. They constantly either don't show up, or they fall asleep when it matters. Yes the Patriots went off the in the first half. But if this offense could have gotten TWO yards this game is over. This offense can NEVER get the big first down, touch down, what ever.

    Now wether that's because Weis knew what to call or Corey Dillon was that much of a bull, I don't know. But it's the small, little, frustrating things that kill this team. They just lack "it". I don't exactly believe in "clutch" but I do believe certain teams have what they call "it". That little extra drive to get to the QB, make the tough first down.

    That's all what the Patriots used to do. Now, they simply cannot.

    We have a coach that ever since 2006 has lost his ability to call the right game plan when it matters most. I <3 BB as much as the next blind homer but you can't ignore his recent losses in big games with big implications. He simply no longer delivers. It seems every big game recently that cost us we're left guessing WTF was he thinking in critical moments.

    We have a defense that can't stop the real teams of the NFL. We have a defense that, similiar to 06, has been helped out a lot by weak offenses. They got exposed against Manning, will be against Brees and any other real QB. This comes down to this team failing to aquire a pass rusher worth a ****. Until than, we will continue to watch QBs sit comfortably in the pocket making all the important throws against this defense.

    Sorry for the long rant, but all the recent big losses, failure to win in critical games really puts things into perspective.

    I think this organization is still run better than pretty much all, and they get it done more than most teams do. But they continue to make their own costly errors that cost them, time and time again. We said all season they needed a pass rusher and they still didn't address it, and they still can't stop a real offense.

    Is it any wonder why since Willie Mac hung em up, Vrabel got old, QBs never run for their lives against this defense?
  16. BradysBunch12

    BradysBunch12 On the Game Day Roster

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    The dynasty is over. The Patriots can win another SB with Brady as their QB, but this team really hasn't been the same since the Eagles Superbowl, and really, the day the dynasty ended wasn't in 06 or 07, but in 05 when they proved their fallible in the playoffs when the Broncos beat them.

    I hate to say it, but at the moment I hate the Colts more than I like the Pats. Belichick to me is the hot girlfriend that put on a lot of weight but is getting the benefit of the doubt for past accomplishments.

    I don't like the guy. His smugness was ok when they were winning, but that's because they NEVER lost and it was hard to nitpick.

    I'm just in a "anyone but the Colts" mindset. Manning is so ugly and annoying to me that I'd rather listen to Party In The USA by Miley Cyrus while getting a finger wave than watch him win another Super Bowl.
  17. letekro

    letekro In the Starting Line-Up

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    I'm hoping for a stress-free, 85 bears-esque postseason this year, any chance I'll get my wish? :)
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  18. wilfork is beastin'

    wilfork is beastin' On the Game Day Roster

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    as long as we get to play Pittsburgh at home, then we're guaranteed at least 1 blowout win
  19. alvinnf

    alvinnf In the Starting Line-Up

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    Hot girfriends that get fat and you hate the Colts? What does this jibberish mean? Is this some sort of secret portal to your soul?
  20. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar In the Starting Line-Up

    #87 Jersey

    Re: Then vs Now: The Ring Years vs 2005 and Beyond

    You are a tool.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
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