The Worst Defense in the History of the World...

[The Dynasty]

How is a turnover a bailout?
An Int is a better play than a 3rd down incompletion. This logic says our D is better if we drop the Int and get a 'legitimate stop'??????????

No...my logic is that the Pats are relying too much on forcing turnovers. Good teams in the playoffs are not going to be turning the ball over and will be making the Pats pay for their poor play on 3rd down if they cannot change this trend.

 

[Ring 6]

No...my logic is that the Pats are relying too much on forcing turnovers. Good teams in the playoffs are not going to be turning the ball over and will be making the Pats pay for their poor play on 3rd down if they cannot change this trend.

But a turnover is a stop, it is equally legitimate, actually moreso.
We have been turning over good teams too.

Again, a stat by itself doesnt tell the story.
For example 17 fewer conversions all season would have us above average.
But all conversions are not created equal. We allow 48.8%. Call it 50%.
There is a big difference between:
1) Allowing 5 straight on 1 TD drive then stopping the next 5 on 3 and outs
2) Allowing 1 on 3 cons scoring drives (big plays first downs on 1st or 2nd) then none on 3 drives.
3) Allowing 50% that are 7 yards on 3rd and 6 vs 40% that are 35 yards each.

You just cant take that stat by itself because there are many factors that tell you what the single number means to the team.

For example, the average NFL defense has allowed 230 first downs, but only 60 of them were 3rd down conversions.
When you consider that, the value of that stat is less than most people make it out to be.

 

[The Dynasty]

But a turnover is a stop, it is equally legitimate, actually moreso.
We have been turning over good teams too.

Again, a stat by itself doesnt tell the story.
For example 17 fewer conversions all season would have us above average.
But all conversions are not created equal. We allow 48.8%. Call it 50%.
There is a big difference between:
1) Allowing 5 straight on 1 TD drive then stopping the next 5 on 3 and outs
2) Allowing 1 on 3 cons scoring drives (big plays first downs on 1st or 2nd) then none on 3 drives.
3) Allowing 50% that are 7 yards on 3rd and 6 vs 40% that are 35 yards each.

You just cant take that stat by itself because there are many factors that tell you what the single number means to the team.

For example, the average NFL defense has allowed 230 first downs, but only 60 of them were 3rd down conversions.
When you consider that, the value of that stat is less than most people make it out to be.

You are just piling nonsense on to your argument. 17 is a lot of stops, almost 2 more 3rd down stops a game. If you didnt include Monday nights game in that it would be a lot higher because the Pats 3rd down D was actually very good last night, not what it is been all season. Could this be an indication that it is improving?, maybe so, but still after such a great performance and still being 32nd in the league shows just how poor it has been.

You are giving examples of different ways to covert on 3rd downs, by saying well if a team converts 5 3rd downs on 1 drive and then gets stopped the next 3 its fine. Yeah, it probably would be, but that isnt the case with the Pats. They have been consistently bad on 3rd down.

My argument is that the Patriots are relying too much on creating turnovers. It doesnt matter about any stat, they rely on creating turnovers too much. When you get into the playoffs, you cannot be successful because the quarterbacks in the playoffs will not turn the ball over. If the Pats are going to make a deep run in the playoffs they cannot continue to allow teams to move down the field and then hope that they can force an INT.

 

[RayClay]

3rd downs on defense are equally as important regardless of the opponent or situation.

That's senseless. Peyton manning can ring up score after score if you let him hit the long ball.

Other teams want to run all game, of course you're more worried about third downs than the long ball there.

When you get a lead then force Peyton to move up and down the field in small chunks, never hitting more than a 28 yard pass the whole game (!) You take him out of the game he wants and he makes mistakes.

How many people are going to tell me we didn't play him well, we didn't get three interceptions, we didn't win the game and we aren't 10-2? it's just ridiculous.

Football is a game of situations. Brady is the master of moving the chains, Peyton is not. He got some third downs, he got zero long passes and he threw three interceptions and lost.

 

[The Dynasty]

That's senseless. Peyton manning can ring up score after score if you let him hit the long ball.

Other teams want to run all game, of course you're more worried about third downs than the long ball there.

When you get a lead then force Peyton to move up and down the field in small chunks, never hitting more than a 28 yard pass the whole game (!) You tsake him out of the game he wants and he makes mistakes.

How many people are going to tell me we didn't play him well, we didn't get three interceptions, we didn't win the game and we aren't 10-2? it's just ridiculous.

Football is a game of situations. Brady is the master of moving the chains, Peyton is not. He got some third downs, he got zero long passes and he threw three interceptions and lost.

Your whole argument is based on one game and one QB in which the Pats had a 17 point lead in were in prevent the majority of the 2nd half...

Failing to stop opponents on 3rd down, leaves the door open for opposing QBs to make teams pay. In the playoffs QBs will most likely take advantage of this

 

[sly24]

It is true, but come playoff time its tough to depend on turnovers to keep bailing you out. I am not saying the defense needs to be a top 5 defense, it just needs to get a little better and not depend on forcing turnovers every week.

I agree. I almost wrote in my post : but the defense can't rely on turnovers lol.

I guess what I was trying to say is that there is some positive stuff and we can see the improvement.

 

[RayClay]

Your whole argument is based on one game and one QB in which the Pats had a 17 point lead in were in prevent the majority of the 2nd half...

Failing to stop opponents on 3rd down, leaves the door open for opposing QBs to make teams pay. In the playoffs QBs will most likely take advantage of this

But the jets were only 3 for 12 on 3rd down. As I've stated somewhere, they are a ball control team, so 3rd down stops are more important, and they made them. There are lots of arbitrary landmarks and statistics that indicate how a team played in situations.

They are only to be used as part of evaluation, not the be all and end all.

I happen to think it's pretty hard to stop Peyton Manning, especially with a rookie, UDFA and a guy that was benched at CB. You stated it doesn't matter who you play, all that matters is a certain percentage of third down stops. I disagree.

 

[RayClay]

We only made 4 out of 10 on third down against the Jets, I guess they stopped us. Looks good for them in the playoffs.

 

[ausbacker]

No...my logic is that the Pats are relying too much on forcing turnovers. Good teams in the playoffs are not going to be turning the ball over and will be making the Pats pay for their poor play on 3rd down if they cannot change this trend.

You're quite aware that the Patriots defense has become quite adept at forcing turnovers now then? My apologies for thinking take aways were quite important to the success of a defense.

Frankly, I can't even believe that this mentality exists.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I think the Pats defense will get exposed for what they are in stats if we come across a team for the next month that is capable of playing a turnover-less game.

If the defense cannot force turnovers or the opposing QB is not going to throw stupid throws,this defense will be giving up chunks of yardage as it usually does,the turnovers and the mistakes the opposing offenses have done against our D are a huge reason why this team is 10-2 - There were several games where those offenses and special teams blunders practically gift wrapped us wins.

Has the Pats D forced the majority of turnovers by the opposing team or were the opposing teams just not playing heads up ball and securing the rock is the big question here?

Cleveland made few mistakes in that game and they beat this team rather handily,no team had played a better game offensively than Cleveland did in terms of near errorless play

....you can only hope a near perfect game by an offense like Cleveland did that game does not come up in January or this defense will need to stop the offense on their own terms.

We have won so far on a superb offense and a defense that has taken advantage of other teams mistakes...that needs to
continue when the games get REAL important and its do or die time

 

[RayClay]

I think the Pats defense will get exposed for what they are in stats if we come across a team for the next month that is capable of playing a turnover-less game.

If the defense cannot force turnovers or the opposing QB is not going to throw stupid throws,this defense will be giving up chunks of yardage as it usually does,the turnovers and the mistakes the opposing offenses have done against our D are a huge reason why this team is 10-2 - There were several games where those offenses and special teams blunders practically gift wrapped us wins.

Has the Pats D forced the majority of turnovers by the opposing team or were the opposing teams just not playing heads up ball and securing the rock is the big question here?

Cleveland made few mistakes in that game and they beat this team rather handily,no team had played a better game offensively than Cleveland did in terms of near errorless play

....you can only hope a near perfect game by an offense like Cleveland did that game does not come up in January or this defense will need to stop the offense on their own terms.

We have won so far on a superb offense and a defense that has taken advantage of other teams mistakes...that needs to
continue when the games get REAL important and its do or die time

A better team than Pitt, Indy or the Jets?

It's funny how all these teams decide to make mistakes against us. Must be a coincidence.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

A better team than Pitt, Indy or the Jets?

It's funny how all these teams decide to make mistakes against us. Must be a coincidence.

Indy - Peyton dumb ass throw going in for the winning TD or at least a tie,should have tried to run it a little even if they are not great there.

Jets - You know as well as I do that while Sanchez looks good one game,he throws picks galore the next,I think the Pats scored on 2 of his INTs last night.

Pitt - Sanders 31 yd TD return off a Roethlisberger brick

When you think about it,Sanders has been a key player for this defense but rarily gets any recognition


The bottom line once again why this team is 10-2 is this...

1) Coaching
2) Quarterback
3) An offense few teams have been able to figure out to stop
4) A defense giving up chunks of yardage and long drives but has TAKEN ADVANTAGE of some of those mistakes like I posted above and have been able to keep the offense from having to do it all

Thats the bottom line no matter how you see it.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

A better team than Pitt, Indy or the Jets?

It's funny how all these teams decide to make mistakes against us. Must be a coincidence.

RayClay shoots....he scores!! Fwiw, you were 'the man' these past 10 days. I definitely had my doubts about the Pat D leading up to the game (making that clear in posts). You were rock solid in your belief the Pat D was better than many (not all) were giving them credit for. Kudos.....

 

[ausbacker]

A better team than Pitt, Indy or the Jets?

It's funny how all these teams decide to make mistakes against us. Must be a coincidence.

It's funny how few are reluctant to praise the Patriots developing defense for doing the things we want them to,

1) forcing turnovers,
2) restricting opponents scoring to give the offense a chance to strike, and
3) winning.

Good offenses can help out poor defenses. Good offenses can't help the defense create turnovers and make key stops when they need too.

Some times I shake my head at the things I read here. Sounds like the New Orleans Saints of 2009 all over again.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Arrington has improved but I expect Bodden and McCourty to be our starting corners next season and if the team can obtain a pass rusher in FA or the draft who can come close to doing it consistently then this defense can become as good as the offense is.

Pass Rush is still the weakest part of the team hands down and its not even close

if that gets addressed in the offseason, look out in 2011 which could bring a season record as good if not better than this one.

 

[Kontradiction]

Arrington has improved but I expect Bodden and McCourty to be our starting corners next season and if the team can obtain a pass rusher in FA or the draft who can come close to doing it consistently then this defense can become as good as the offense is.

Pass Rush is still the weakest part of the team hands down and its not even close

if that gets addressed in the offseason, look out in 2011 which could bring a season record as good if not better than this one.

Our pass rush definitely won't draw comparisons to the '85 Bears, but it's not nearly as bad as you're describing. We were able to crash the pocket on Sanchez on numerous occasions last night. Sack totals aren't everything.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Our pass rush definitely won't draw comparisons to the '85 Bears, but it's not nearly as bad as you're describing. We were able to crash the pocket on Sanchez on numerous occasions last night. Sack totals aren't everything.

Consistency is the key especially against Elite QBs - I never mentioned sacks - I think pressure is much more important that those sack stats.

There are 32 teams in the NFL that will have at least ONE game EVERY year that looks awesome in pass rush - some teams show it most of the year,some teams show it now and then while some show it on a rare occasion

I am hoping next year its most of the season

 

[RayClay]

RayClay shoots....he scores!! Fwiw, you were 'the man' these past 10 days. I definitely had my doubts about the Pat D leading up to the game (making that clear in posts). You were rock solid in your belief the Pat D was better than many (not all) were giving them credit for. Kudos.....

It's about winning that individual game. Our defensive coordinator is a pretty sharp guy. Talent and experience wise, this defense has no business being part of a 10-2 team that has beaten the best. Because they execute the game plan for that team, a different plan for different teams, they win.

A green team like that improves tremendously in confidence from success, and success means winning. Period.

 

[RayClay]

Our pass rush definitely won't draw comparisons to the '85 Bears, but it's not nearly as bad as you're describing. We were able to crash the pocket on Sanchez on numerous occasions last night. Sack totals aren't everything.

Our pressure is a work in progress, but all our LBs and OLB/DE are young except TBC (even Mayo, with an injury year and playing differently position wise). We miss Pryor and Wright up the middle.

More pressure without blitzing will always be a plus, but we've forced some mistakes at key times which is really more valuable than a sack usually.

Key is - young, will get better IMO.

 

[stcjones]

You're talking about Rob Parker on espn this morning? For those that missed it Parker said the Pats were not going to the Super Bowl because they have 'the worst defense in the league, bar none', and that 'the numbers don't lie'. Why some people are still fixated on one and only one stat - yardage - is beyond me. If the entire season hasn't proven that the numbers do indeed lie, then last night's game should have caused Parker to reassess his position.

Perhaps Parker was pandering to his audience; he writes for espn New York.

You are so right here jmt......every espn mediot (or most of them) is convinced that Pats have the worst D in the league based on YARDAGE against them. They don't look at any other stat than that and claim that Pats are next to last in team defense in giving up the MOST yardage. Well anyone (especially we patsfans that have to pop nitro pills while it is going on) that knows what BB has been doing late with his defense knows that it is INTENDED to give up yards....burn out the clock...and if he feels confident in how well our O is playing.....GET us the ball back. Soft prevent......loose coverage......bend but do not break............insanely tough to watch as a fan, and in my opinion seems to let alot of these teams "back into the game".....but it probably also keeps the DEFENSE FRESH....so they are not gassed at the end of the game. Not sure.......but who can ever question the genius that is bill belichick......