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The war is sad

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Feb 16, 2006.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This link beautifully expresses one important reason why many liberals oppose the war in Iraq. The lyrics are by a UK vet.

    http://nobravery.cf.huffingtonpost.com/

    Even though some of you will disagree with it, I think you'll find it powerful.
     
  2. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve In the Starting Line-Up

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    Every thread posted in earnest deserves a response. Here is mine.

    War is always sad. War is always brutal. War is always cruel. No one has ever wanted to fight in one, at least once they found themselves in combat. Nations always owe it to their soldiers to find the best possible end to the ones they find themselves in.

    The song and the lyrics are far too political and slanderous to the men who find themselves there. They are doing a job that their nation sent them to do. They should be filled with pride and honor to do so. I am filled with awe and respect and indebtedness to and for them.

    The reasons for the war, the correctness of the war, the events that led us to war are irrellevent. The real question is: how does this nation end this conflict in such a manner that will ensure a free and independant Iraq, peaceful to its neighbors, and tolerent to all of its citizens.

    This is the debate that needs to occur now. Regardless of reason, we are at war on the other side of the globe, and we need to find the best possible end to this conflict, to show the respect to these honorable men and women.
     
  3. mikey

    mikey In the Starting Line-Up

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    The reason for the war is not irrelevant.

    The correctness of the war is not irrelevant.

    The events that led us to the war is not irrelevant.

    The was was based on LIES.

    2,300 innocent American soldiers are dead.

    Thousands of innocent Iraq chilldren are dead.

    Those numbers are not irrevelant.

    .
     
  4. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Like shirtsleeve said, agree with or not, the horse is out of the barn and cannot be put back in.

    The biggest question is, how can we get out of Iraq without it spilling over into a total clusterfrack?
     
  5. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve In the Starting Line-Up

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    Those issues are not irrellevent in and of themselves. Dont misconstrue irrellevent to the problem at hand with irrellevent to the personal tradgedy of their loss.

    War is a tradgedy, always. Many people, some of them non combatants die, always. These are the brutal, sad givens of war, always.

    Screaming "Impeach Bush" will not get them back. Screaming "the war is unjust" won't either. Instead of politicically thrashing the issue, and looking to pin blame for the war (which not all think is unjust or unneeded) let us, for a change, debate the proper end to this conflict, as I stated above. Let us try to debate and discuss this more important topic and try to come up with a resolution to the fighting which includes a free Iraq, peaceful to its neighbors, and tolerant of all of its citizens. We owe THIS to our soldiers. They dont deserve the backbiting and secondguessing of their mission. Now that it has started, show respect to our men and women in uniform by having a constructive debate on how to end their mission with the same pride and honor that they have displayed.
     
  6. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve In the Starting Line-Up

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    My point exactly, Turd. Any first thoughts?
     
  7. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Its hard to say given that we dont know (or at least I dont know) the real capability of Iraq's military/police force. I think they need to set acceptable levels of capability and then start reducing troop levels as a sort of trade off. As one Iraqi unit joins the fray, one American unit departs it and so on and so forth.

    I feel Iraq's leadership needs to have a stronger voice/presence either at the U.N or in the media. I hardly hear anything from them.

    Thirdly, I think our very own media needs to start focusing on these very issues and what can be done going forward instead of constantly re-hashing Abu-Ghraib and Cindy Sheehan. Should we totally forget or bury under the rug all the abuses and negligent mistakes that have been made? Of course not. But lets not forget that they are in fact, a very small percentage of what is really happening with our fine fighting/peacekeeping force over there.
     
  8. mikey

    mikey In the Starting Line-Up

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    I thought the biggest question is not about the war.

    I thought the biggest question is about this country.

    It is about the integrity and morality of this country.

    This is about the most powerful nation on earth stooping to the same level as those savages who attacked our people.

    It is about this Christian nation that perpetrated some of the most heinous inhuman atrocities seen in modern war time.

    It is about this God-fearing nation who have no problem butchering children in Baghdad.

    This is about church-going bible-quoting Christians who have no problems telling lies and sending other people's children to die for their lies.

    That is what I think is the biggest issue about this immoral and illegal war.


    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2006
  9. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    So where do we go from here Mikey? Look forwards for a change
     
  10. mikey

    mikey In the Starting Line-Up

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    Hmmm ... are we actually having a civilized discussion here???



    .
     
  11. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve In the Starting Line-Up

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    Ummmm...ok, for arguement's sake, I will take everything at absolute face value and accept everything you say as undeniable truths. Domestically, this means some serious issues with the administration.

    But that is, again, not relevent to the real problem at hand. How do we get out of this war properly? Please, for this one thread, can we get past the accusations, name calling, blaming and flaming and for once try to constructively debate a positive solution to this problem?

    I'll start... we cant simply withdraw. This would not only leave Iraq too weak to defend itself from its neighbors, it will leave it unable to provide infrastructure for its people. Many more would suffer and die. Withdrawl would also leave a power vaccuum sure to be filled by militant Islamist Extremists. This would threaten the entire region.

    We cant simply dump this mess on the UN. The political regional mess in that chamber would guarantee a thorough raping of Iraqi resources at the hands of the French, Germans and Russians.( Again, no flaming on your response here. Our goal, in this thread is to see a free and independant Iraq, reaping the rewards of her own resources. So no Haliburton references required.) And we would be looking at decades of muddled mismanagement before they just up'ed and left Iraq no better off than it is right now.

    So what do we do? My first suggestion is to bring in enough troops, supplies and capabilities to absolutely lock down that country from ALL outside influence. Lock down the borders. Kick out all non Iraqi's. Crush the armed insurgency with overwhelming force.

    Then we back off and let the Iraqis start to implement their new govt and constitution. We assist them in every way possible to rebuild their country. We train and arm a new army and security force.

    After the country stabilizes, and they are well on their way to true self rule, we can only then begin a measured but sustained withdrawl of our forces.

    This plan will cost thousands of more lives of our military. It will cost tens of thousands of Iraqis their lives too. It will cost us hundreds of billions of dollars. And at the end of a decade or so, maybe, just maybe, things will start to be set right in that country.
     
  12. mikey

    mikey In the Starting Line-Up

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    It all sounds pretty simple, doesn't it?

    (a) Lock down the borders: how do you lock down Iraq border when we cannot even lock down our own border. And how many people do you need to lock down Iraq border?

    (b) Kick out all the non-Iraqi. How do you kick out the non-Iraqi when we cannot even kick out illegal aliens in our own country.

    (c) The plan will cost us thousands more lives. Easier to say if you are sending other people kids to die for you. By now, most parents are no longer fooled.

    (d) Hundreds of billions of dollars. This would mean cutting more Medicare, student loans, social security, money to build New Orleans. Easier to say if you are not affected by the cut.

    I thought your proposals, while good, is a little naive.

    You must have heard the saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2006
  13. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve In the Starting Line-Up

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    like I said, its a start. An opening for discussion. Please feel free to propose a better solution. We are in this war, and we need to find a decent end to it.
     
  14. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Ok so we do all of that stuff and then the people of Iraq up and kill the first guy who decideds to draw a picture of Allah for some newspaper. There's no good solution here because we're trying to impose our values on people who just don't share them. The only good solution would be no more US troops dying for a lost cause.
     
  15. scout

    scout Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #15 Jersey

    Ok, my two cents. First, these are the best replies I've seen in a long time.
    As far as leaving Iraq in good terms, understand most of us will have died from old age when this happens. My brother-in-law tells me (he being of neo-con DNA) that the whole mission was to get Iran (we are surrounding them) and have not forgotten them for past hostilities. That said, we're not going anywhere. Even if thats not the case, take a first hand look at how we are handling rebuilding New Orleans. $300 million housing units sit on an airfield in Hope, Arkansas. Compare that to Iraq where you have constant recruiting going on to fight against us. Eight billion dollars unaccounted for. Contractors gouging and committing fraud. New Orleans is a piece of cake compared to Iraq and we can't get that right. My guess is that we have not heard the worst of the mess that Iraq is in. My take is one of two things is going to happen. We stay for a long, long time, or we get out overnight ala Vietnam. My stance is we get out and use those resources to secure our own borders and upgrade our security, forces, etc. This was one huge mistake to invade this country and that is a good reason as any to get out.
     
  16. JLC

    JLC Practice Squad Player

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    Mikey, in the spirit of this thread, I would like to suggest that you put forth a proposal that you think might work instead of just shooting holes in something another poster says. It's far different when you actually have to DO something - in this case just propose something that indicates some serious thought about the issue - instead of just whacking others.

    What would you do President Mikey? (President JLC is still thinking about this)
     
  17. Terry Glenn is a cowgirl

    Terry Glenn is a cowgirl Banned

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    Easy answer...

    When we hit Iran...this will start WWIII. Mark my words.

    USA's hourglass is done.

    It's China's turn next.

    We are yesterdays news.
     
  18. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve In the Starting Line-Up

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    Ok, I'm back. The duties of my employ beckoned me away, and soon I shall depart till tomorrow. I apologize.

    Personally, I think my plan is pretty horrific. It is a workable plan, but at an unbelievably huge pricetag, both in lives and resources. But I really dont see any good alternatives.

    Cutting and running sounds good. But it means turning the entire region over to Islamic fundamentalists. Our so called Islamic "friends" will turn on us in a heartbeat. We will be kicked out of Saudi. World energy markets will become destabilized. And our economy will go through such a tailspin that it will make the great depression seem like Christmas morning in comparison. We will have lost all credibility and any strategic foothold in the Middle East. And that isn't the worst of it. Because out of one of these newly fundamentalist regimes will rise a leader who will declare a Jihad against our only true ally in the region-Israel. There will be a massive war. It will go nuclear. At that point we will either have to turn our backs on Israel, or become involved in a thermonuclear war. NOT good. I predict that if we pull out tomorrow, that scenario plays out within 5 years.

    A UN based scenario only delays this outcome by about a decade.

    JLC you hit it right on the head when you said what would you do president Mikey. Because this is the dilemma that our new president will face. I for one am looking for a candidate to have the stones to stand up and propose a real solution to this crisis. The current administration, for better or worse, will be history in 3 years. The new president will inherit this. I will not vote for or support any candidate who does nothing but throw stones at the past in order to garnish votes for himself. So far, Only John McCain has proposed anything to end this war. His informal proposal in congress was similar yet less extreme to mine. Yet this less extreme position may result in less positive results, while still causing all of the costs.

    Any future presidents out there with a better plan?
     
  19. Terry Glenn is a cowgirl

    Terry Glenn is a cowgirl Banned

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    It is silly to read your answers of pulling out of Iraq.

    WE ARE NOT GOING TO PULL OUT.

    We have to have our forces in every country but our own.

    We have to close down more of our bases.

    I can forsee the draft coming again.

    The plan is to be EVERYWHERE EXCEPT HOME.

    That, and we have to be defenseless. (Like Vanderjaght said about the Patriots a few years back..."they are ripe for the picking.")

    We are going to piss off every country except Rome (for obvious reasons).

    What usually happens when you are the school bully...and you were the dominant figure for years? Do you actually think that the other school children (countries) will tolerate this forever? Come on now. You do have brains...right?

    We are going to be royally phuqed. We are going to have race wars, immigrants coming over in droves (HMMMMM...already happening), and then when we blow up the Dome of The Rock (third most sacred place for the Moslems)...that will be the Moslems final straw. They are then going to come at us with a vengence that we never have seen. They will come in Miami way (through Africa, then by Cuba) with China at their side. I think when that happens, gun control would have already passed. IT WILL HAPPEN.

    Haven't you heard by now that we are overpopulated as a planet? What is the number #1 goal for a war? To cull the herd. Population control.

    For the most part, you are talking about only little irrelevant events.

    I know what I've said is just like a foreign toungue to most...but it's going to happen.

    ...when I have no idea.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2006
  20. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I cant imagine we'd go into Iran solo unless it was us lobbing nukes over there as a last ditch attempt to stop them from launching them towards us.
     

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