The Vinny Question answered?

[Ring 6]

Uh, replay Tom's past praise about Flutie.
Same old Patriots-speak.

This is not to say that Brady, Belichick, et. al, don't respect Vinnie's experience. Just saying that the ludicrous claims of Vinnie assisting the starting QB or offensive coaching during the game have no basis in fact.

Those who just love to argue and post oblivious of fact may continue to spout wild theories.

Its just silly to me that the smartest team in memory brings in the 'least smart' QB of hsio generation to tell them how to play offense.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Uh, replay Tom's past praise about Flutie.
Same old Patriots-speak.

This is not to say that Brady, Belichick, et. al, don't respect Vinnie's experience. Just saying that the ludicrous claims of Vinnie assisting the starting QB or offensive coaching during the game have no basis in fact.

Those who just love to argue and post oblivious of fact may continue to spout wild theories.

I was going to ask what Brady said about Flutie, but this whole topic is getting so stale at this point. Vinnie is a third string QB. Maybe he is showing veteran leadership to Cassel. But that is not nearly enough to satisfy the conspiracy theories we have been hearing for two weeks.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I was going to ask what Brady said about Flutie, but this whole topic is getting so stale at this point.

I agree - Brady and Vinnie talk about and compare notes about football - its silly to deny and even sillier to debate.

That doesn't make him an OC though I suppose if he's coaching Cassell some might look at him as a player-coach in some ways.

But no one aside from Brady and Testaverde can say exactly what gets discussed in their football conversations, so to say there's no meaningful advice being shared isn't a statement that could ever be supported

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Veteran leadership ain't coaching. Helpful advice from a new teammate ain't coaching.

You can say or believe whatever you want about the third string QB.

If you want to say that Vinnie is Brady's QB coach, I think you are full of it.

If you want to say that Vinnie is the play caller or game planner, ditto.

 

[PatsSteve1]

Interesting theory.
Of course it has nothing to do with fact.

Testaverde has little IF ANY at all game input to Brady or the coaches.

We now return the Forum to unfounded ludicrous speculation, devoid of fact.

* Thank you Wicked one. The whole playcalling thing is simple. When the Patriots lose it's bad playcalling and when they win it's good play calling. You just have to read this board to know that.

 

[Ring 6]

* Thank you Wicked one. The whole playcalling thing is simple. When the Patriots lose it's bad playcalling and when they win it's good play calling. You just have to read this board to know that.

Wouldnt it be something if that were true? Whatif you could eliminate the actual humans from the game, and have everything come down to play calling. No one has to actual block, tackle, run, pass, catch.
In that alternate reality, we also wouldnt need names, we could all be called NEM.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Andy takes no prisoners tonight.

 

[shirtsleeve]

Its just silly to me that the smartest team in memory brings in the 'least smart' QB of hsio generation to tell them how to play offense.

Aint that the truth! He is the EMERGENCY QB ONLY. Reading anything more into it is just rediculous.

Now to reiterate my conspiracy theory about why the play calling and game management looks better the last couple of weeks. The coaches are now really putting game plans together for the team. This team has been a work in progress for much of the season. This is, believe it or not, a rebuilding year. Many new faces, especially on the offensive side of the ball. Receivers coming into camp or off of injury all season. A rookie featured running back. A rookie right tackle. So the coaching staff has been playing much of the season like an extended preseason. Teaching basics, assignments, schemes, down and distance, etc. to this all- but- brand- new offensive unit. What we saw until the Green Bay game was just that. Base offenses, base defenses, lots of players getting time. Lots of starters not in the game. Very un-Patriotic. But also very necessary to the development of the team. Now that we are past the mid-November point, BB and co. have figured what this team is, and are now putting in their customary game plans. For better or worse, the time for teaching is past (at least as the #1 priority) and the time for schemes and wins is at hand.

Oh, and the team is at 8-3 and leading the division by 2 games.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Veteran leadership ain't coaching. Helpful advice from a new teammate ain't coaching.

You can say or believe whatever you want about the third string QB.

If you want to say that Vinnie is Brady's QB coach, I think you are full of it.

If you want to say that Vinnie is the play caller or game planner, ditto.

I hate to beat a dead horse - but everyone's in agreement that Testaverde's not the QB coach nor OC - but you seem to be the only one saying that Testaverde has zero input - nothing - nada -

That's what you've said and its just not the case - even Brady and Testaverde themselves have said that.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I hate to beat a dead horse - but everyone's in agreement that Testaverde's not the QB coach nor OC - but you seem to be the only one saying that Testaverde has zero input - nothing - nada -

That's what you've said and its just not the case - even Brady and Testaverde themselves have said that.

Apparently you missed the topic of this thread was about Vinnie's role on the team being rather significant to the coaching staff and Brady. That is what I have been disputing.

I still believe that Vinnie has very minimal input into Brady's daily football affairs. Advice in general or veteran leadership is simply different than coaching Brady. And Brady saying polite things about Vinnie doesn't indicate a whole lot to me. Talking as teammates after a football game doesn't indicate much to me. Cassel might benefit from it in a general way, but he is not likely to be coached by Vinnie, and that is not the type theory that has been floated around these last few weeks anyway.

You keep contesting a point of view which I don't really disagree with, which is where the dead horse comes in. You have grasped at this zero-nada-nothing theme, and the fact is that I think Vinnie's significance to Brady is highly overrated by some at this site. Vinnie is a third string QB, and you can expect Brady to say nice things about him. I don't read a whole lot into it, and doubt that Vinnie has made any keen insights that are turning Brady's season around. Sure they talk. No great significance IMO. No more than all the number of other QBs that have backed up Brady.

Sounds like he has helped on the scout team. That also is different than being a coach.

I'm going to bed.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Vinnie is a third string QB, and that's the full story.

His input is somewhere between zero and very minimal.

I couldn't resist, as there's a story today about Testeverde's "zero to minimal input. " (Felger goes WAY overboard in trying to give Vinny any credit for Brady's statistical improvement though)

Following the Pats’ 40-7 blowout of Houston Sunday, Testaverde was asked if he had been doing more playing or coaching the past month.

“A little of both,†he said. “My role is just to be a sounding board for anyone in the room who wants it. To give my advice, whether it’s used or not. I know sometimes it matters to hear it from someone who has been in that situation before and knows what you’re experiencing. Sometimes if you hear it from someone who has never been in there, it might not mean as much.â€

Said Brady: “He’s a great sounding board. As quarterbacks, we spend all week talking about plays we like and plays we don’t like. That’s what we do. And he’s always right there. Why don’t we make the ‘X’ (receiver) run this route? Why don’t we do it that way.’ And a lot of times we do. He has a good big-picture view. As a quarterback you can’t just worry about yourself and a few guys around you, you have to be aware of what everyone is doing. And Vinny knows that. He sees what I see out there.â€

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=172990&format=&page=1

Again, while no one is realistically suggesting that Testeverde supplanted McDaniels as OC or is a QB coach, to say that he has "zero to minimimal" input when a.) you don't know and b.) it would be unlike Brady, Belicheck or the Patriots in general not to tap into every resource available is just plain wrong.

 

[PatsRI]

Can he hold on FGs? That's the question now.

 

[Krugman]

I cracked up when I read your post,RayClay.......

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Actually, that is quite incorrect.

I, and many others, criticized the play calling last Sunday against the Texans, even though we won 40-7.
Your comment is dead wrong.

We won 40-7 because Houston is a very bad team.

Our defense handed the ball to our offense in HOUSTON TERRITORY on FOUR OCCASIONS and on each occasion the play calling was pitiful and all we could muster was four field goals and NO TOUCHDOWNS..

If we do that against a better team, forget it.

The plays that were called during those four posessions was pitiful, if you want to take the time to go back and read the game book.

Our defense got the team, and the fans, high with excitement, and then the play calling brought them alldown to the field level, as it has done so many times this season.

I appreciate that you think otherwise, but sometimes you really need to get your bias out of your system and look at the truth...

Our play calling has been pitiful this season...and I am not the only one to write about it. In fact, more posts, and more threads, have been started about the bad play calling by OTHER posters, than myself.

That is fact. Believe it.

I thought the playcalling was a little more refreshing as they went back to the screens and passed out of multiple receiver sets on many occassions. We need to remember that Watson and Maroney have been out leaving alot of speed out of the lineup.

The best part of the playcalling was the pats didn't try their power i formation at midfield. They only used it twice according to reiss. The pats finally came to the realization that they do best out of multiple recv'r sets.

If they revert to the power I form. I will be disappointed next week. They need to open things up.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I thought the playcalling was a little more refreshing as they went back to the screens and passed out of multiple receiver sets on many occassions. We need to remember that Watson and Maroney have been out leaving alot of speed out of the lineup.

The best part of the playcalling was the pats didn't try their power i formation at midfield. They only used it twice according to reiss. The pats finally came to the realization that they do best out of multiple recv'r sets.

If they revert to the power I form. I will be disappointed next week. They need to open things up.

Well, seeing as 1.) Houston doesn't defend screen passes all that well and 2.) Playing with out Maroney it made sense to use a screen pass the way one would use a run - I'm not surprised to see that playcalling.

I think if they go up against another team where the screen pass doesn't make sense again, you'll see it go away.

 

[spacecrime]

I brought that up last night. He DID hold for the Jets, at one time.

But he was starting QB then. If he is going to hold fokr FGs, he can't be third QB.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Well, seeing as 1.) Houston doesn't defend screen passes all that well and 2.) Playing with out Maroney it made sense to use a screen pass the way one would use a run - I'm not surprised to see that playcalling.

I think if they go up against another team where the screen pass doesn't make sense again, you'll see it go away.

1. And everyone in the league defends them well? the screen pass essentially disappeared throughout the entire season.

2. As I recall the week before when they only had Dillon they averaged about 5 yards a carry. Everyone was screaming to have Dillon run more. I would figure the screen would be a better fit for Maroney in open space.

Everyone thinks Maroney is great between the tackles. And I've heard everyone say run Maroney outside. The Pats are NOT a power running team. How soon we forget about Denver, Miami. It's easy to beat up on bad run defenses like Cincy and Indy. Maroney is better in space. He has yet to truly develop his vision on finding the hole.

They should have used screen passes all season long. I'm refreshed they are going back to last years playbook with some screens.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

But, IMO, the screens that were called, on a couple of occasions, were called with the wrong back in. Twice it was called for Dillon when, again IMO, it shoudl have been Faulk. The Dillon screens went for very little.

I would like to see them use the Power I but only in a play action situation, with the play action to the up back, freezing the defense for a second, the 2nd back remains in as a blocking back while the up back moves into the flat, or the slot for a safety valve.

It can be a very valuable tool if we show it once or tiwice because it makes the defenses start guessing on future Power I formations.

NEM the Power I spells disaster. They can not run out fo the goal line between the 20's. They need to spread the field and use dump off passes under the defense which in the long run will help Watson. Remember when Maroney was getting the ball and given an opportunity to run? You were praising his run ability.

 

[AzPatsFan]

There is no doubt in myu mind that Vinny was brought in for multiple reasons.

1: Certainly as an experienced backup.

2: To help Brady, along the sidline, with another pair of Quarterback eyes.

3: To offer input into the playcalling. Not necessarily to call the plays, but to offer input if he sees something or thinks that something might work in a given situation.

Personally, I believe that the latter was the main reason. I believe that Belichick respects Vinny's experience and his knowledge of offensive, NFL football and that was the main reason he is now on our sideline....

Belichick, again only my opinion, is not tickled pink with the boy Offensive coordinator who is being skunked and out guessed and out coached by most of the DC's on the other side of the field on game days.

I would not be surprised to see him replaced, at that position, next season.

A lot will be dependent on how the rest of the season goes, offensively.

NEM you're dreaming. Josh MacDaniels isn't going anywhere unless someone offers him a job as a head coach. Belichick isn't firing him as much as you might fondly dream of it, just as he didn't fire Charlie "the high school" coach
Weis.

 

[IcyPatriot]

If the QB's get together to go over the game plan with the OC ... and if they all have some input as to which plays will be on the playsheet... then Vinnie does indeed have input on the gameplan.

All of the above was true under Charlie Weiss and it remains true today.

All you fools who don't understand this simply have not been paying attention. How much input does Vinnie have??? Who knows, but to say he has no input is about as dumb as saying Michael Vick belongs in the Pro Bowl.