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The USA Is Bankrupt

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by ljuneau, Feb 16, 2009.

  1. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

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    Federal obligations exceed world GDP
    Does $65.5 trillion terrify anyone yet?


    Very enlightening article. What is scary is that this article reflects 2008 figures and does not yet take into account the giant stimulus bill that just passed.

    Who is going to bail out our ravenous government?
  2. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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  3. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Nobody. China and Japan's economies are going down so our normal saviors can't help us this time.

    Our obligations are over 5x GDP.

    Would you buy a million dollar home with a combined household income of 200k?
  4. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Messiah Will Save Us - Fear Not - His Groupies Wept At His Coronation He Has Risen

    Praise God Thank You For Our Obama
  5. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The bulk of what we're looking at there are the Social Security and Medicare entitlements.

    This will also be in large part the source of the "Gray vs. Everybody" battle that is coming. It is not today's problem, however.

    The numbers I've seen for those two programs are 53 trillion bucks. That number may be more or less recent than the one quoted here. The problem is that we don't have that much money. Nobody does.

    It's well known that we have to address the retirement entitlements. It is a matter of when.

    The recent spending orgy that put us 10 trillion in present debt (as opposed to adding future obligations from entitlements) indeed pales by comparison, as does Obama's slight increases to Bush's orgy. It is likely that Obama may even turn out to be a spender of Bush's caliber over the next few years; we will see.

    However, the question of entitlements is separate from either of these administrations. It is a simple matter of reducing benefits, changing the retirement age, or means-testing.

    I am interested, however, in the OP's ideas on how to address the eventual demographic earthquake represented by the baby-boomers' "big cash-out."

    PFnV
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Last edited: Feb 16, 2009
  7. Run DMC

    Run DMC Rookie

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    Why doesn't anyone ever mention the trillions we have wasted and continue to waste on military spending? Maintaining an empire destroyed the Romans, more recently the Soviets, and next, us.
  8. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

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    Honestly? I have no freegin idea. I don't see any easy fair answer.
  9. Triple-T

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    PFnV summed this up nicely...it's all about social security.

    When the SSA was established, the retirement age was 65 and average life expectancy was about ~63. Now, the retirement age is 67 and average life expectancy is ~78. Re-align those numbers to how it was at the establishment the SSA and this problem starts to solve itself.

    Then we can deal with everything else the fed is screwing up. Maybe up the gas tax to drive some revenue. ; )
  10. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    SS? no, i think it's a little bigger than that....

    look, ... it's over...

    people need to just accept it...

    99.9% have been hijacked by the top .1%...this is just another predicted, incremental step....

    of course the US is bankrupt... it assigned its entire derivative-based economy on the commodity of cheap crude oil... unfortunately, nature has made it clear that that commodity is quite limited... Nixon-Reagan-Clinton never heeded Hubbert's words, or never cared.... yet, our gluttonous interest-based system just kept chugging along, throwing caution to the wind... and now we're past the bell curve of the commodity... oops...

    i don't mean to get off on a rant here, but... Bush cheney knew this was coming years ago.... that's why they hid the Cheney energy taskforce transcripts within their first weeks in office -- all the way to the Supreme Court... no one knows what they talked about to this very day.... that's why their own enterprises got contracts and conjured up a privatized war, replete with well-studied "acceptable" casualty figures ... that's why they billed the Pentagon for $ billions, grabbed what they could, while they could... and got out.... do you think it's a coincidence that oil was $145 a barrel their last summer in office?

    then 3 of the biggest 5 (and then 8 of the biggest 12) financial institutions in the world suddenly go on life support, and gas price suddenly halves itself...

    ah well... here we are.... all that's left now is for the government to declare itself insolvent...

    well, no, that's still a little ways off... but it could happen sooner than some might think... and look, they even managed to have left a black guy holding the bag!... the depravity of this crew that just left never ceases to amaze me... i mean really, if you actually stop and think about what has gone down the past few years -- it is truly awesome. .... such brass ones. ... so utterly cold-hearted ...


    i'd say hope for the very best, and plan for the very worst...

    if you have any semblance of savings, the best thing you can do right now is diversify 1/2 of it (including in various metals), and spend the rest of it on **** you'll need in a post industrial age.... period... that's gear, tools, perishables, wood burning stove, ... etc. ... maybe a mastiff or two... :cool: ... get friendly with your neighbors.... get local...

    if your dwelling has a fireplace, great... an irrigable yard and room for plots with clean soil? even better... access to clean drinking water? best... you're way ahead of the game... be grateful, because most people will be without...

    but guess what? when the **** hits the fan, your government and your corporations? they don't give a sh*t about you... they're bankrupt anyway... they won't be around to deliver bread and water, or flush your turds...

    still have your doubts? ... just think to yourself what would happen in this country right now if an Andrew hit Miami, or a fault-line snapped in California...

    we.... are..... broke.....

    good luck....

    classic...... it f'n should
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2009
  11. Real World

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    If SS is the root of all the gubmits problems, then why is it that state gubmits, along with those of cities and towns, are broke too? :confused2:

    The problem isn't SS. A theory that explains everything, explains nothing. SS is merely a piece of the sh!t pie we've been served for the last 60 years. The bottom line is that gubmit is incredibly inept, and inefficient. As gubmit grows in size and scope, so do it's obligations, and liabilities. Some people still refuse to concede to this simple fact. Look at the bottom line of gubmit over the last 60 years, and you will see that there is not a single annum where it's fallen in the black. It's course is unsustainable, and until this fact is dealt with honestly, it's collapse will be ugly.

    I love the "raise revenues" crowd. You can only squeeze so much juice from an orange. When you spend too much as an individual, amassing unsustainable, and unneeded debt, is the answer to ask your boss for a raise, so you can "raise revenues", or is it to spend less?
  12. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

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    AMEN!
    Now here comes the next piece of the sh!t pie, TARP2
  13. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    It makes no sense for China to keep financing us. Our bailout/recovery is going to fail when Japan and China pull the plug on lending us money.
  14. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The United States declared bankruptcy @1930 I believe ... we have been defunct since then. We're like the spoiled rich kids whose parents keep supporting them fearing anything less would lead to their demise.
  15. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    That's about the 15th time you've given this advice PC. ;)
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's really a silly article because it's acting as if everything is due at once, when in fact, the annual amount due is far smaller. Consider that 80% of debt is held by businesses and individuals in any given year, the federal government does not appear to be especially ravenous, despite the doom the gloom perspective and the hopes for Obama's failure of the defeated right-wing. Yes, we have to get our economic house in order, and I for think we ought to tax the wealthy far more than Obama proposes since they stand to gain the most from a recovery.

    Rather than worry about government, let's worry about all the business and private debt that is bringing our economy down. Blaming government is just a conservative form of whining about Obama's victory. Had conservatives spoken up earlier, such as in the age of Reagan when he was engaged in massive deficit spending, they might have some credibility, but now it's pretty obvious they're just sore losers. They apparently only support deficit spending to help foreigners, such as the Iraqis, not to help unemployed and suffering Americans. It's sick.
  17. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why are so much more worried about government debt than private and business debt, which is vastly larger than that of government? I'm curious to hear your explanation, but honestly doubt you have one, and hope you're not simply caught up in partisan politics and simply regurgitating a conservative mantra.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2009
  18. BSR

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    Because its not just the outstanding debt its the way that its growing as well. No individual could take on debt at the pace that article is projecting and still stay solvent. Thats the point. Now of course, all the debt isn't going to come due at once but its still one hell of a big obligation that is hanging out there. Its clear that spending is going to need to decrease one way or another.
  19. IcyPatriot

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    I'm still convinced the retirement age will be bumped to at least 68. Claiming disability will become harder also as the middle class will come to fear having to live off SSI. I still wish Obama would drastically reduce foreign aid also. We need to be one of the world leaders as opposed to being the world leader ... anything less is suicide.
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It is a big obligation, but tax rates can be set by the free market. Tax those with the greatest disposable income at the highest rates. If it makes our economy strong, those same people will be the ones who benefit most from a resurgent stock market.
  21. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

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    First, tax rates are not set by the free market. Never have been, never will be.

    Second, not enough government "leaders" understand that lowering taxes, spurs economic growth, which actually raises income to the government.

    Third, taxing those with the greatest disposable income at higher rates has never worked. These are the people that create jobs, expand the economy, and raise the standard of living for everyone. Doing what you suggest forces the opposite affect.

    You really should study economics, your suggestions show that you know very little about the subject. They have been tried before and those policies have proved to be utter failures, if not destructive.

    "Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died!"
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2009
  22. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course they are. The political establishment responds to the market. Sometimes taxes go up; sometimes taxes go down.

    There's no evidence to support that. Unfortunately, the two people generally cited when making this case (Reagan and Bush II) both deficit spent more than they cut taxes, sort of like Obama.

    What are you basing your statement on? Some of our best economies saw rising taxes, including under Eisenhower who raised taxes to 90%. Clinton also raised taxes and we not only had a robust economy, we were fiscally prudent. Reagan and Bush II cut taxes, but then had to deficit spend massively to fend of recessions (and generate income taxes to increase government revenue).

    Do you ever back up anything you say? You seem to make claims with citing any facts or historical evidence to support your claim. Makes your posts seem intellectually lazy, and that's a shame. Also, what is your knowledge of economics? It sounds to me like you're trying to cover up your lack of substance by claiming to have some knowledge. Why don't you prove it by posting some facts to support any of the claims you made in this post?
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2009
  23. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    huh? this is wrong
  24. ljuneau

    ljuneau Rookie

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    LOL. What world do you live in? This is beyond silly.

    Yes there is, history. Look up JFK. And for current events, check China.

    For the 1,000,000th time, spending creates deficits!!! Try smacking yourself upside the head. Someday it'll sink in.

    Your rather silly suggestions support the fact you know nil about economics. I truly wish you would study history and read a simple economics book, so you'd realize that your current beliefs are disastrous, have been tried throughout history, and have failed. Open your mind a bit, read, learn, and take a break from the kool-aide.

    Let me ask you a rather simple question: Which creates jobs and economic growth, the government or the free market?

    Once you learn the true answer to that question, you've taken your first baby step in learning the basics of ecomics.
  25. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    So if we have any questions regarding economics, we should come to you?:rolleyes:
  26. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Tax rates are based on economic reality, which has a political component. Every president, at least in my life time, ran on a program that promised to improve the economy. Those programs involved spending and taxes to improve the market. If the market got better, that president did well (Reagan, Clinton, JFK/Johnson, Bush II). If the market did worse, those presidents struggled. (It's certainly part of the reason why Carter lost, why Clinton won, and why Obama won.) If your argument is that the market does not impact politics, then you're the one who's silly.

    Actually, it's LBJ, not JFK, but perhaps you're letting right-wing pundits do your thinking for you? JFK pursued closing tax loopholes as part of a tax cut plan, thus he argued that his tax cuts were a tax increase and corporate America did not support his plan. Kennedy did recommend a demand side tax cut by increasing deductions for poor and middle class people, but also advocated heavy spending (well actually everything, even the tax cut, happened under LBJ, but it was JFK's plan) on social programs and infrastructure. Like others, the plan enacted under LBJ involved spending and tax cuts. But, again, I don't only rely on pundits for my arguments. I like facts.

    As far as China goes, what in the world are you talking about? You think we should follow China's model?

    You seem to be ignoring the issue, but you don't seem well versed. If you want, go back and read what I wrote and offer something other than a non sequitur. Deficits are a problem that can be address by raising taxes or over time, if those deficits are properly managed. Again, the free market does cause politicians to respond at different times by doing some combination of changes to tax codes and spending.

    Once again, you appear to cover up an utter lack of facts in your post by questioning my knowledge. Do you really think you're fooling anyone other than yourself? Try posting some facts to support your arguments. They're out there, but you won't find them on Rush's site.

    A combination of both, even from a conservative perspective. Ever heard of the military? The Interstate highway system? Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid? Under conservative presidents, we massively spend to employ weapons manufacturers and additional troops. That pumps an awful lot of money into our economy.

    It's good to see you're getting defensive, but of course it's hard for you to argue because you apparently have no facts to cite to support your beliefs.
  27. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If "spending" gets money into the economy, and there is ultimately more money chasing fewer or a similar pool of goods and services, then inflation usually results.

    Inflation is good if your goal is to erode debt, assuming you do not have an ARM or the equivalent. The present value of future liabilities decreases in an inflationary environment. So while we wail and gnash our teeth about social security and medicaid, if you simply freeze or hold below general inflation the cost of medical care -- which gee, go figure, is a major focus of the Obama approach -- you end up with the larger part of the frightening 65.5 billion in future obligations even more greatly reduced in an inflationary environment.

    An inflationary environment is also a way to "pay down principle" across society, without anybody pizzing and moaning about how their neighbor's principle got paid down and theirs didn't.

    What else does inflation erode? Private accumulated wealth. Sure you're still a billionaire, but if a billion is yesterdays 500 million, why, you're practically destitute.

    Inflation is the "flat tax" that's so popular when you're complaining about the burden on the rich rather than the poor (the guys who "should" pay, as I understand it.) Well, inflation hits everybody. Low double digits for a few years should put us in a far better position than today.

    Two problems: 1, there's never any guarantee that you can contain the amount of inflation you generate. 2, nobody will reelect you if we're in it for more than a year or two.

    Interesting times.
  28. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, inflation does seem to be one of the ways economies "naturally" correct themselves, but if you ever plan on running for office on that platform, maybe you should promise everyone that they'll be millionaires under your economic plan! :D
  29. PatsFanInVa

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    Two chickens in every pot and what's more, you can stuff them with hundred dollar bills because they're cheaper than stuffing...
  30. BSR

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    Well I think that is an enevitability. There is no way of really funding it, unless you just start printing money and that has its own problems.

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