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The USA Foreign Policy Sham

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by IcyPatriot, Mar 4, 2014.

  1. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Why is America right and Putin wrong?

    IMO it is a very valid question. Not that Putin is any countries version of a utopian leader.

    >> But what exactly is our foreign policy as it relates to promoting democracy?

    >> Do we only promote and agree with democracies where that country enters into the proper union of countries?

    >> Are neo-con string pullers running this country regardless of President?

    If one believes in democracy and free elections and country constitutions then I submit that Putin's opinion is valid ... more valid than ours. Granted ... his interest is no more pure than our interest. Neither interest is pure and anyone who thinks it is is smoking pot with pixie dust in it.

    What exactly is our foreign policy and does it really exist of a firm moral foundation?

    Going back to at least Reagan our foreign policy is a sham. Reagn had Radio Liberty comprised of right wing exiles praising Ukrainian nationalists who had sided with the Nazis in WWII ... think about that for a moment. Praising Ukrainians who fought alongside the SS. Obama recently was in cahoots with Al-Nusra ... an al-Qaeda affiliate who was not officially announced as such when Benghazi happened but has now since been announced ... a point I made way back when in this forum but I digress.

    Yanukovych was elected in what many national observers said was a fair election. However protesters from western Ukraine used an economic policy dispute into a cause to overthrow an elected government.

    Another one to think about as I said:

    How does one support democracies and fair elections and overthrow of governments all at the same time? We are not supporting democracy at all ... we are supporting political ideologies ... not democracies ...not at all. Not much different than some of what we see in this country. I guess a democracy can be defined as when 50.1 % of the people who are pro west think they can control the 49.9% of the people who are not.

    When you fall in line with the proper thinking you are in lockstep with democracy ... when you don't agree you are a right wing extremist which is bad unless you support the proper corruption of the day by the approved elected leaders - then it's good.
  2. Nunchucks

    Nunchucks Rookie

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    First, the elected leader of the Ukraine has stolen like 36 billion dollars from the country, built himself a huge mansion full of posh amenities and a fleet of fancy cars that would make your eyes blur with wonder. All this while the country is near bankrupt, the people need food and basic medicine. And lets not forget the blatant corruption....this is why the people held protests and were KILLED en mass by order of this elected president.

    The people rid themselves of a crook and elected a new leader. Russia is interfering with the self-government of Ukraine and we will move to impose economic sanctions, as we do with any country that acts thusly. Our foreign policy has been very clear.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/uk...eniuk-says-ousted-government-stole-70b-n40076
  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    Not implying at all that he was a good leader ... but he was elected in a fair election ... and he was ousted in a coup ... that is not democracy. The question remains ... how can we promote democracies and coups at the same time? The answer is we promote democracies that are part of the pre approved union of countries. You side stepped the question. This is not a ukraine thread ... we have one and it's not a cold war thread ... we have one of those also. It's a what exactly is our foreign policy and do we really support democracies. If we support democracies then why would we support the overthrow of an elected leader.
  4. Nunchucks

    Nunchucks Rookie

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    They legitimately elected a new leader.

    Each situation must be evaluated on its own merits, you can not just have rules of thumb in these extremely complex situations.
  5. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    You still have not responded to the question ...

    No ... they have not had fair elections ... the government installed a new leader until they have elections again. We have supported the overthrow of an elected leader ... why do you think that is okay?

    The original question:

    "How does one support democracies and fair elections and overthrow of governments all at the same time"?

    What kind of foreign policy is that?

    Perhaps you missed that we supported the overthrow of Chavez in 2002?

    Do we support radicalism or do we support democracy?
  6. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    It is pretty incoherent (if you ask me). Basically, I think it comes down to "pure majority rule" (at least in Afghanistan, Iraq and the Arab Spring nations). No sense of fundamental rights or protecting minority groups. (See: Afghani and Iraqi constitutions...abominably bad).

    Not sure about that. I doubt the reigning political ideologies in Libya and Egypt are what we had in mind.
  7. Nunchucks

    Nunchucks Rookie

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    You want to make this a black and white issue, it is not. You can take the simple minded route, I choose to see these situations as they are, very complex that must be looked as an individual situation, not as a "foreign policy"

    If you want to call it a policy on foreign affairs, think of it as reviewing it on a case by case basis and making a determination based on the evidence presented.

    I do not understand why you are not for giving careful thought to each case and making a determination based on evidence rather than just having a blanket policy that you apply to every situation...That seems kind of silly, don't you think?

    No matter what we will do X when Y happens.....except you are not taking into account variables ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWX...I mean really? How is that a smart way to deal with the world?
  8. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    I don't think it's silly at all ... a democracy and a constitution of a sovereign country should be supported if one truly believes they are a supporter of democracy. If a country has fair elections then those elections should be upheld until the next election.

    If 55% of this country hated Obama and the ACA according to your view it would be okay to overthrow Obama. People in the Ukraine were upset over the EU decision ... so you are saying that they are then justified in overthrowing their leader. Why do we support the overthrow of leaders when we are supposedly supporting and promoting democracy? They are not one in the same.

    At a point in time X a vote of enough people Y elected a leader Z. But as that term progressed an angry bloc of people Q decides that the vote of Y is no longer valid.

    That is not democracy ... it is only democracy when Q protests ... talks to their leaders ... and persuades them to listen. Otherwise in a real democracy Q waits until the new election takes place to elect a leader that will do what they have voted them to do. That is democracy and that is what we should support unless a leader is actively breaking international law while they are in power ... as in killing their citizens or similar atrocities.
  9. Patradomous

    Patradomous Rookie

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    #87 Jersey

    This thought I never took into account until I heard Michael Savage bring it up. He was elected in a fair election. Probably fairer than ours they have to produce and ID to vote.And he was overthrown.Don't sound right to me either.

    This is also above my paygrade other than the fact it depends if it is a "good $$$" democracy is or not.
  10. Nunchucks

    Nunchucks Rookie

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    It isn't about hating the leader, it is about committing crimes against ones country, embezzling 30+ billion dollars, murdering protestors, etc....That is why it has to be done on a case by case basis.

    If Obama had stolen billions of dollars and put them in offshore accounts and had the military kill protestors...and refused to leave the presidency..what do you think would happen here?
  11. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    The protests came before the alleged murders ...

    Obama as previous Presidents before does actively let the Fed embezzle money from the country.

    Obama is currently breaking some laws of our Constitution as he changes the Congress approved ACA law ... only Congress can change the law legally.

    By your response I can say you would support the overthrow of Obama because he may be a criminal President who is corrupt. But luckily in this country our democracy is strong and at some point either Congress will reign in Obama or we will elect a new President ... as it should be in a democracy. Luckily there is no superior country to ours that would support the overthrow of Obama.

    Kind of sensationalized on my part ... but not far off base either.
    A democracy is only valid when it is approved by a stronger and superior country ... that is reality.

    You're changing the parameters of the original question which you refuse to respond to.
  12. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Whoa. You lost me with that last sentence.

    Did I miss something? When did those elections take place?

    Icy Patriot and Patradamous are right.
  13. Nunchucks

    Nunchucks Rookie

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    They will hold elections and elect a new leader, i was wrong. They have appointed an interim leader. The legislative branch of the Ukraine is still in operation.
  14. Nunchucks

    Nunchucks Rookie

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    That because your question is in the same arena of "when did you stop beating your wife"
  15. Patradomous

    Patradomous Rookie

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    #87 Jersey

    Yeah I was thinking more on the lines of Solyndra and the stimulus heist.

    Or see Drudge today another unscheduled delay in Bambicare after the elections.

    As just a small sample. But we don't overthrow him.
  16. Nunchucks

    Nunchucks Rookie

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    Conspiracy nonsense aside. A House that hates Obama more than they like the American people have not done anything about these so called conspiracies. I am very skeptical that there is anything illegal going on here because if there was, we would be seeing people getting prosecuted.
  17. Patradomous

    Patradomous Rookie

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    #87 Jersey

    Putin blames ?coup? for Ukraine crisis, says Russia reserves right to use force | Fox News

    I don't know if he truly believes this but its his excuse. It was Obamas excuse to take over 1/6th of the American economy in the guise that it would "help the poor." It sure did everybody poorer because of it.
    So maybe Putin and Obama are really soul mates.
  18. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    It's fine Nunchucks ... you cannot support your position on the principals of democracy ... noted.

    I shall say that you have been easily swayed by the media ... they have done their job well once again.

    The American people share your view ... our media is brilliant.

    1: Yanukovych elected in a fair election 2010.

    2: Yanukovych maintains cordial relations with Russia - USA neo cons become angry.

    3: USA neo cons are angry that Obama made agreements with Putin to avert military action in Iran and Syria.

    4: USA Neo cons still want regime change in the Middle East - they work around Obama.

    5: USA Neo cons get Israel and Saudi Arabia to work together - Obama may be cornered.

    6: Putin gaining power and recognition neo cons are now irate.

    7: Should Yanukovych be muscled by the USA approved IMF or take the $15 billion dollar and discounted gas deal with Russia.

    8: Yanukovych should have balanced the wishes of his divided country ... but that's politics and those are the blances that are worked out in democracies through political not violent means.

    9: Far right nationalists in Ukraine decide to overthrow elected government.

    10: USA meida portrays right wing storm troopers as peace activists. :ugh:

    11: Yanukovych and his supporters flee. Far right nationalists take over parliament and pass their own laws ... unanimously no less (that's democracy?)

    12: USA media in cahoots with USA government portrays Yanukovych as a dictator and the rioters as pro democracy activists ... Really?

    13: Brainwash complete ... Americans who are mostly supporters of democracy have been brainwashed into believing that coups are perfectly acceptable in a democratic country ... amazing Bob Costas is proud of his work during the Olympics ... old red eye had to get back to the Olympics ... he had America's attention ... the neo cons had their man - Bob did a great job ... Putin bad ... get Putin.

    14: Obama cornered once again by the neo cons ... America missing the real story here.

    15: Neo cons waged war in the Ukraine ... without soldiers of course ... brilliant.

    16: Moral of the story ... as long as the USA does not actively really support democracies the string pullers and corrupt billionaires of this country and abroad in cahoots with the Fed and the IMF will always subvert their will around the world via the hijack of the USA government and the meda. Now you know the rest of the story ... the USA does not and cannot really support democracy because it is against their true intentions of amassing power around the world by keeping weak countries weak and dependent and politically destabilized. If we had real democracy intentions then other countries would eventually threaten our superiority and we need those countries to prop up our power. Putin and China will not allow the balance of power to shift.

    It's killing me not to discuss 9/11 again ... but those who see all this know what I'm thinking.
  19. Patradomous

    Patradomous Rookie

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    #87 Jersey

    How can the media be so wrong on so many levels all the time? domestically and worldly?

    Say what you want about Michael Savage but he toots to his own horn.He basically said what you are saying.

    Bob Costas was on Orielly last nite and gave a good defense of himself as a Putin ass wiper. In total context, by his version he gave a reasonably balanced observation overall during the whole Olympics.
  20. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    As I wrote to Patradamous - - not just the media is doing this.

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