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The Story of California

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by State, Jun 24, 2009.

  1. State

    State Rookie

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    A glorious state rendered low by trying to be all things to all people, esp. welfare recipients and public employee unions.

    We Can Learn From California's Debacle

    A cautionary tale, perhaps?

    BTW, the author attended Harvard Law with Barry Sotero, aka, our President.
  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    California failed to raise taxes to keep up with its services, a problem when you have a state made up of liberals and conservatives. If liberals had not been so generous with the public services or if conservatives had not been so resistant to tax increases, CA would not be in the mess it's in.
  3. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    Lets not forget the Enron 'situation' out here, also our budgetary compensations have been education and care for the elderly and needy. Now our youth is more sickerer, and dumberest.

    There is nothing left to cut.


    godforbid they raise taxes out here!!!!


    5 more weeks......and Cali is broke.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
  4. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I think we know where the problem is :

    "To pay for all of this, California has the highest top personal income tax rate and the highest sales tax rate in the country."

    It's not a tax problem.
  5. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Great. Starve the beast. Cut, cut and cut some more. Because tax proposals are going to be voted down.
  6. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Rookie

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    Its the worlds 8th largest economy.

    Its dumb how idealogical political 'values' are getting in the way of any discussion in Sacramento. Its broke, we need to fix it. Its not happening. Sad really...This is a wonderful state, with a diverse population, and so much to offer....its shame that suits are being unproductive b!tches because of political 'values'.....


    also



    I think what everyone seems to be missing is that our Governor is a robot form the future. Do we really think he cares about humans?


    he didn't until the second movie....
  7. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    We can't fix it by raising taxes. Starve the Beast, get spending under control then do what makes sense from there. It can't be "fixed" but cutting around the edges and raising taxes.

    We also should sue the Feds for the cost of illegals that the Feds are responsible for keeping out but aren't.
  8. State

    State Rookie

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    This is big. Carol Platt Liebau, who was on the Harvard Law Review with Obama, has more details here: How Politicians Bankrupted California

    She writes,
    Out-of-control spending, folks.

    Low- or non-skilled immigration and public sector employee unions together, while politicians, have bankrupted the unbankruptable state.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2009
  9. CrazyDave

    CrazyDave Rookie

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    All the while, millions and millions of dollars worth of high grade marijuana is grown in CA, but the gov gets nothing.
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well thank goodness that ignoramus didn't run for office. He is ignoring the fundamental fact that California did not raise taxes to pay for its social services. On the one hand, you can blame working people for wanting decent wages in that expensive state or welfare people for having the nerve to be poor; or you can blame conservatives for blocking necessary tax increases.

    Here's another take on California's crisis:

    California's Fiscal Crisis: The Legacy of Proposition 13 - Yahoo! News
  11. State

    State Rookie

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    You obviously didn't read Carol Platt Liebau's article, Patters, since she addressed this.
  12. State

    State Rookie

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    Here's her response:
  13. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    It doesn't matter if our taxes are the highest - Patters still thinks they should be even higher.

    There's nothing wrong with Prop 13, we can't have taxes being raised all the time and the limiting of property tax is a good thing; I still have a problem with property tax at all, even moreso because it's double taxation and lastly, I'm sure Patters would be the first to cry for old people who had to sell their houses because they couldn't pay their property tax.

    California doesn't have a revenue problem, it has a spending problem. We should also sue the feds for the $9B annually that illegals are said to cost us as border patrol is a Federal issue, not a State issue.

    So my kids will have a few more kids in their class and maybe band will be canceled. That's fine. Starve the Beast, baby.
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I did read the article, and in response I posted an article about the legacy of Proposition 13, so I'm sure what you mean when you say Liebau's article addressed this.

    True, CA has higher taxes and pays public employees well, but to live in CA you need to earn more. It's an expensive state to live in because it's been quite popular. As far as illegals go, CA has to do something. They can either provide them with basic subsistence care or hire more police and build more prisons.

    If illegals were such a problem, the Republicans should have addressed during the years they controlled both Congress and the White House. Now, we're in a different era, and problems will be dealt with differently.

    Regardless though, let's hope the Democrats don't ignore the problems, but instead find ways to address them.
  15. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Or sue the Feds for $9B a year retroactively.
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't know if taxes should be higher, but CA has to pay its bills and find a way out of its current predicament. If taxes had done a better job keeping pace, CA would not be in this predicament. That said, I'm all for running programs more efficiently and closing down unnecessary ones, but it's my feeling that does not add up to humongous savings.

    CA's tax rate is not that far out of whack compared to the rest of the nation in terms of percent paid:

    The Tax Foundation - California's State and Local Tax Burden, 1977-2008

    The Tax Foundation - State and Local Tax Burdens: All States, One Year, 1977-2008
  17. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Or we can just cut our bills.

    You sill haven't read State's link, have you :

  18. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    But our deficit IS that far out of whack.

    Patters, it is simple - Debt = Money In minus Money Out. You just said our taxes aren't out of whack. We all know our Debt is out of whack. So what is left ? MONEY OUT.
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    "Indeed, if spending had simply reflected average population growth plus the average increase in the cost of living since 1991, there would now be a $15 billion surplus. After adjusting for inflation, the state now spends nearly 20% more per capita than it did 18 years ago; even as California's tax revenues increased by 167% during that period, state spending exploded by 189%."

    How should I respond? Like any slanted article, it's not giving me enough info, not telling me if that number is inflation adjusted, not telling me if that number is related to the technology boom (and the likely need to improve roads) -- those numbers don't tell me much. The fact that tax revenues increased by 167% and state spending went up by 189% tells me that they needed to cut costs or raise taxes.

    I never particularly liked California even though I spent quite a bit of time there, so I have no particular knowledge of how the state wastes money. Paying public employees more in an expensive state seems reasonable, and I don't really see what choice CA had with regard to illegals. As I said, you can either create a huge social problem and hire more police and build more prisons, or you can try to develop affordable programs to help them assimilate. There's no great option.
  20. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Sigh. Let's try this AGAIN :

    Last edited: Jun 30, 2009
  21. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I should have seen that phrase, but regardless the article is ignoring the costs and benefits of the technology boom. Sure, if CA had chosen to to remake its roads, not to encourage investment, not to develop new parts of the state to accommodate a growing population, etc. it might be in better shape. But, it took those risks, which rewarded many people quite well. Indeed, when I worked in technology I was paid CA rates in MA, which were quite a bit better than local rates. Well, now the crows come home to roost. All those great times with great wages and taxes similar to that in other states are over. It's time to pay your bills. We have to do the same in MA. The free ride is over.
  22. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Not sure I get your point - "great wages" are taxed, there was plenty of income. Too much spending. But, yeah, the FREE RIDE probably is over - for those getting money for free. I just said that for the play on words, but there's two ways to pay the bills and we're largely going to do it by lowering the bills.
  23. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We're actually not disagreeing. I think that's what's creating the confusion. I do not know enough about CA to say whether they are massively wasteful or not. CA faced special challenges thanks to the technology boom and the increase in illegal immigrants. It managed those quite well until the current crisis. My guess is both sides are at fault -- the left for spending too much, the right for taxing too little. Obviously, in this economy it may be more necessary to cut services than raise taxes, but if you cut services too much you create other problems and other costs.
  24. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Unfortunately raising taxes causes other problems too. People talk about leaving the country based on Bush or obama but virtually no-one will; leaving a State . . . now that's about 50 orders of magnitude easier and more likely.
  25. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Unless you own your own business that depends on repeat customers in hard times like these...not that I'd evah leave Mass!
  26. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    I thought you were going to tell "the story about a man named Jed.;)
  27. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    what are you like older than Harry Boy?
    You've pretty much been everywhere ... been to North Korea or Siberia?
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2009
  28. State

    State Rookie

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  29. State

    State Rookie

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  30. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    The more he talks, the more stupid he sounds. Dems used to say that about Bush - and they were right; unfortunately it's still the case with the new Prez :(

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