The Stallworth love

[JoeSixPat]

OK, you have all talked about him in comparison to the other WR's that were on our team, yet you do not compare to others in the NFL, where does he rate amongst the top 20 or 30 WR's in the league.

Is he a true #1 WR, or should I say CAN he be a true #1 WR.

There's no need to look him as a #1WR. There's hardly a need to even assign a number to ANY Patriot WR.

And looking at Stallworth's overall numbers or comparing them to "top" WRs in the league too misses the point that we are most interested in Stallworth to play a significant ROLE.

Specifically the role of a deep field threat.

Last season with our "deep" threat WR averaging 13 yards a catch, defenses were able to move up signfiicantly, use their safeties to blitz, stop the run, or double cover our main receivers Watson and Caldwell. This caused major pressure on Brady,and limited production from our runing and passing game.

Last season Stallworth - specifically playing the role of deep threat for Philly, averaged 19 yards per catch. Of course that's an average - so to be on the safe side you can count on the fact that safeties will have no choice but to position themselves much more than 6 yards further back... but even if it were "just" 6 yards that would make a meaningful difference to our team.

Stallworth attained that average of course by bringing in a number of big plays and THAT'S what secondaries will be concerned about preventing - pushing them even deeper down the field

Most importantly one doesn't need a deep threat WR who will catch 80 passes a season to achieve the desired impact. Like Stallworth, two big catches made a game, along with the threat of several more, is more than enough to keep a defense "honest" and avoid the pressures placed on our offense last season.

So if you are looking to prove that Stallworth's numbers don't stack up to the "top" receivers in the league in numbers or total yardage - congratulations, you've done so succesfully - but you've fully missed the point of why the Patriots are so interested in Stallworth (and apparently Randy Moss)

The role for Stallworth is not to catch 80 passes or rack up 1200 yards - it's to do exactly what he did in Philly. 40 passes & 800 yards would be a MAJOR difference maker here, not just for those yards and catches alone, but also in what it does to help our TEs, other WRs, RBs, as well as preventing safeties from having a 15 yard head start on hitting Brady.

 

[patsfan13]

OK, you have all talked about him in comparison to the other WR's that were on our team, yet you do not compare to others in the NFL, where does he rate amongst the top 20 or 30 WR's in the league.

Now I can understand everyone being mental over Adalius Thomas because IMO he is a bluechipper LB, why should that same reaction be for Stallworth, you see I think he is an average receiver, one that will come in, like Caldwell and Gaffney to a certain extent and do his job well but not spectacular. I see him as along the lines of Morris, Brady and Welker, all good additions to a quality roster. Stallworth is an average WR, is he not just the #1 free agent WR in a borderline average group of guys.

Is he a true #1 WR, or should I say CAN he be a true #1 WR.

I have my doubts.

I only care about whether he help our O not whether he is better than player A on Team X. IMO he will make our O better. He had an impact on the Philly O (more when McNAbb was QB than with Garcia). HE is a young guy with a lot of talent, who can improve this team.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Tall receivers (6'4-6'5) don't fit into NE's system well. BB, and Pioli have tried to find a tall WR that fits and they hve failed about five times.

Stallworth is 6-0 196 lbs. He is no lumbering giant, but he is no smurf either. He has pretty good size and speed for the position though. Here is a link to his stats.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302227

The numbers don't pop out but he is a big play receiver that can stretch defenses which is what we are looking for. If he won't sign I think we need to think WR in the draft. Who knows when Chad Jackson will get healthy again? And he will be behind the curve again if he misses significant amount of training camp due to having to rehab that ACL.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Nice post! That about sums it up.

But the total number of passes that he catches is not high. Could it be that the ONLY thing he does well, is run deep? Teams then wouldn't use him as a regular receiver, since he stinks at it.

A sort of self selecting one-dimensional effect.

Patten was that way, but not as talented. The Pats disn't use him much to move the chains, becasue you couldn't run an offense on relying on his short and intermediate ability for getting open, and catching the ball.

 

[JoeSixPat]

But the total number of passes that he catches is not high. Could it be that the ONLY thing he does well, is run deep? Teams then wouldn't use him as a regular receiver, since he stinks at it.

A sort of self selecting one-dimensional effect.

Patten was that way, but not as talented. The Pats disn't use him much to move the chains, becasue you couldn't run an offense on relying on his short and intermediate ability for getting open, and catching the ball.

Probably not the best analogy, but during the Cold War, was it pointless to have nuclear weapons because they weren't used? Or did they have a positive impact as a deterrent.

The deep threat is a deterrent. Safeties stay back because they don't know whether its coming. It's the home run ball. In baseball, if every player were a ground ball hitter, outfielders would come in just behind the infield (okay now I'm mixing my metaphors but you get the point)

When your deep threat averages 12.5 yards a catch (which includes those rare ground balls that got through to the outfield) the outfield/secondary would be stupid not to come in with such a low deep ball threat.

Actually Stallworth's 70 and 60 catch seasons I think show he CAN be used as an all around player - but he has a much greater impact for a team catching just 30-40 passes at 20 ypc.

Again - don't focus solely on his catches and yards - what would it mean to Ben Watson not to have safeties draped on his back a split second after (or during) the time he makes a catch.

What would it mean to Cadlwell to not to be double teamed on so many plays. What would it mean to RBs to have defenders more spread out?

And what would it mean to Brady to have fewer LBs and safeties gunning for Brady's head who ordinarilly would be dropped back in coverage if the field were adequately stretched?

Everyone seems so focused on Stallworth's low catches they seem to forget that football is a game of chess.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

1. He's available.

2. He runs good, clean, deep routes.

We need a guy like that.

We didn't have a single receiver who averaged more than 10 yards a catch last year. When that happens, you shorten the field for the defense, and it's easier for them to make plays like the critical play where we couldn't pick up a first down against the Colts with 2:00 to go.

Stallworth has consistently played in offenses that have good run/pass balance. In his 5 years, the average pass attempts per game by his teams have been 33, 33, 34, 34, 34. In that environment, he's been good for about 4 catches a game, averaging 15 yards per catch. 70 percent of his catches in his career have been for first downs. 30 percent have been for more than 20 yards. (Also, he's had over 250 total touches and lost only 2 fumbles.)

Put a guy on this team who is good for 4 15 yard catches a game, and the whole offense gets better. We shouldn't break the bank for him. But of the players available, he's a good fit.

 

[Big Bucks]

How much money does Caldwell get, take his numbers last year for the Pats which were quite simalar to Stallworth's, is the money that Stallworth would get worth that extra 10yds per catch. I'm thinking not..... 32million is way overpaying for a player that brings the stretch the field ability to the team.

 

[sebman2112]

I'm willing to bet that if Stallworth came here he would be better than Branch.

I agree. Stallworth already has more yards, has missed one less game, ten more TD's, and a better ypc than Branch, so I can't see why he wouldn't perform well in NE's system.

 

[JoeSixPat]

How much money does Caldwell get, take his numbers last year for the Pats which were quite simalar to Stallworth's, is the money that Stallworth would get worth that extra 10yds per catch. I'm thinking not..... 32million is way overpaying for a player that brings the stretch the field ability to the team.

Caldwell's contract was offered and signed at a time when Caldwell had never caught more than 28 passes in a season or ever stayed healthy.

I really don't want to fill my roster with a lot of guys with that resume, hoping they over achieve. So comparing the contract of a career underachiver with a proven deep threat is an apples to oranges comparison.

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in a 6 year $32 million contract report - supposedly we're offering a 1 year deal, though I do think we'd need to go a little further than that. Even if it were there's no way the full amount of that contract would be "real" - probably more like 3 years at $3 million a season rather than 6 years at $4 million.

I guess the question is, do you want 5 WRs who are 10ypc guys - and accept the fact that your TE, RBs, WRs & QBs are all going to be facing an incredible amount of pressure, taking hits, never having a chance to break a big play?

Or do you think there might be some benefit to stretching the field to keep everyone productive and healthy.

Stats involving solely catches and yards don't take that into account. Clearly, BB & SP recognize this, hence their clear interest in adding a deep threat.

 

[salty]

First off, that 6 year, 32 million dollar deal we supposedly offered has got to be bogus. I am sure that Belichick and Pioli envision Stallworth coming here on a one year deal to prove himself.

Perhaps they would (or did) offer a longer deal with that kind of money, but I can guarantee you that it would be loaded with incentives and structured in such a way that the Patriots could easily part ways if it didn't work out. After all, the guy has injury concerns attached to him, he has not always been entirely dependable (fantastic one game, dissapears the next), and now there is the substance abuse trouble to boot.

That said, I think Stallworth would be a good fit, if the contract were very short or easy to offload. We need a deep threat on this offense. I really wonder about the people that question this assertion. Didn't they notice that last year, by mid-season, pretty much every team we faced was stacking the line of scrimmage to take away the first 10 yards? I'm amazed it didn't cripple our offense even more, because teams were able to cue up against the run and pretty much sit on our short timing routes.

The reason they were able to do that is because they had virtually no fear of being burned by a deep threat or a playmaking wide receiver that could make something happen after the catch. The timing offense will always be our bread and butter, but the potential of a deep passing game would really open up what we do best. The Patriots would be foolish not to try to get a guy that fit the deep threat/playmaker mold for next year. I'm not saying anybody will do (big fat NO to Randy Moss), but I am sure glad they are at least examining their options.

 

[AzPatsFan]

First off, that 6 year, 32 million dollar deal we supposedly offered has got to be bogus. I am sure that Belichick and Pioli envision Stallworth coming here on a one year deal to prove himself.

Perhaps they would (or did) offer a longer deal with that kind of money, but I can guarantee you that it would be loaded with incentives and structured in such a way that the Patriots could easily part ways if it didn't work out. After all, the guy has injury concerns attached to him, he has not always been entirely dependable (fantastic one game, disappears the next), and now there is the substance abuse trouble to boot.

That said, I think Stallworth would be a good fit, if the contract were very short or easy to offload. We need a deep threat on this offense. I really wonder about the people that question this assertion. Didn't they notice that last year, by mid-season, pretty much every team we faced was stacking the line of scrimmage to take away the first 10 yards? I'm amazed it didn't cripple our offense even more, because teams were able to cue up against the run and pretty much sit on our short timing routes.

The reason they were able to do that is because they had virtually no fear of being burned by a deep threat or a play making wide receiver that could make something happen after the catch. The timing offense will always be our bread and butter, but the potential of a deep passing game would really open up what we do best. The Patriots would be foolish not to try to get a guy that fit the deep threat/play maker mold for next year. I'm not saying anybody will do (big fat NO to Randy Moss), but I am sure glad they are at least examining their options.

Salty,

I agree that defenses were collapsing on our WRs and running game. But Gaffney wasn't ready to contribute until the last three games and they were playoff games. Before that it was Caldwell, and Caldwell, and Caldwell some more, and sometimes Troy Brown, occasionally.

Yet Caldwell had to run the move-the-chain routes and did so; Troy at 35 could only do short routes and only, occasionally. CJ was an injured rookie, too wet behind the ears to contribute.

This season is already different. Gaffney is now part of the equation, and he has 50 catches a season on the resume`. Welker is now part of the equation, and he has 60 catches on the resume`. Caldwell now has 60 catches on the resume`, too. I maintain Wes is a two-for-one acquisition. He can reliably catch the short ones, and Gaffney and Caldwell will be free to catch those and more of the deeper ones,as well. That pair has already proven they can reliably catch short ones and on occasion catch the deeper ones too. CJ might contribute more than last year especially in the second half. Simply having three NFL level receivers, two of which have some deep catches already, will mean they get more intermediate deep routes to run and catch.

Yet they were reliable enough to get open often enough, and catch the move-the-chains passes; and they did.

The Pats moved the chains. Enough to get within 60 seconds of the Super Bowl, without having Gaffney, except for three games. Without having Welker. Without getting anything from CJ, or Kight or Bam. Forget Stallworth or Moss.

I'd rather add another couple of LBs for depth. Don't you realize that a single injury, and undrafted, raw, near-rookie, scrubs, like Mays or Alexander are starting! Sign Asante and gets some backup LBs...

Its about building a complete Team, not signing talent.

 

[shakadave]

Probably not the best analogy, but during the Cold War, was it pointless to have nuclear weapons because they weren't used? Or did they have a positive impact as a deterrent.

The deep threat is a deterrent. Safeties stay back because they don't know whether its coming. It's the home run ball. In baseball, if every player were a ground ball hitter, outfielders would come in just behind the infield (okay now I'm mixing my metaphors but you get the point)

When your deep threat averages 12.5 yards a catch (which includes those rare ground balls that got through to the outfield) the outfield/secondary would be stupid not to come in with such a low deep ball threat.

Actually Stallworth's 70 and 60 catch seasons I think show he CAN be used as an all around player - but he has a much greater impact for a team catching just 30-40 passes at 20 ypc.

Again - don't focus solely on his catches and yards - what would it mean to Ben Watson not to have safeties draped on his back a split second after (or during) the time he makes a catch.

What would it mean to Cadlwell to not to be double teamed on so many plays. What would it mean to RBs to have defenders more spread out?

And what would it mean to Brady to have fewer LBs and safeties gunning for Brady's head who ordinarilly would be dropped back in coverage if the field were adequately stretched?

Everyone seems so focused on Stallworth's low catches they seem to forget that football is a game of chess.

Marvelous post, whether the analogies apply or not!

 

[salty]

The Pats moved the chains. Enough to get within 60 seconds of the Super Bowl, without having Gaffney except for three games. Without having Welker. Without getting anything from CJ, or Kight or Bam. Forget Stallworth or Moss.

I'd rather add another couple of LBs for depth. Don't you realize that a single injury, and undrafted, raw, near-rookie, scrubs, like Mays or Alexander are starting! Sign Asante and gets some backup LBs...

its about building a complete Team, not signing talent.

Just because they were able to go surprisingly far despite a serious deficiency at WR does not mean that they have no need to address that problem. In fact, I'd argue quite the opposite. Had the Patriots had decent receivers last year, we might be celebrating another Superbowl victory. Just one more guy in the AFC Championship game and we would've come up with the ONE MORE FIRST DOWN we needed in the second half.

They have addressed it already with Welker. That might well be enough, but I'd feel a whole lot more comfortable with a deep threat.

As for LB, I do agree that we are perilously thin at the position as of now, but that could be addressed pretty well with one of our first round picks and another free agent signing (perhaps Donnie Edwards, if the price were right). I actually think Alexander could be a decent backup though. He played pretty well in the AFCCG, especially considering it was his first ever start. There is some promise there, IMO.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Salty,

I agree that defenses were collapsing on our WRs and running game. But Gaffney wasn't ready to contribute until the last three games and they were playoff games. Before that it was Caldwell, and Caldwell, and Caldwell some more, and sometimes Troy Brown, occasionally.

Yet Caldwell had to run the move-the-chain routes and did so; Troy at 35 could only do short routes and only, occasionally. CJ was an injured rookie, too wet behind the ears to contribute.

This season is already different. Gaffney is now part of the equation, and he has 50 catches a season on the resume`. Welker is now part of the equation, and he has 60 catches on the resume`. Caldwell now has 60 catches on the resume`, too. I maintain Wes is a two-for-one acquisition. He can reliably catch the short ones, and Gaffney and Caldwell will be free to catch those and more of the deeper ones,as well. That pair has already proven they can reliably catch short ones and on occasion catch the deeper ones too. CJ might contribute more than last year especially in the second half. Simply having three NFL level receivers, two of which have some deep catches already, will mean they get more intermediate deep routes to run and catch.

Yet they were reliable enough to get open often enough, and catch the move-the-chains passes; and they did.

The Pats moved the chains. Enough to get within 60 seconds of the Super Bowl, without having Gaffney, except for three games. Without having Welker. Without getting anything from CJ, or Kight or Bam. Forget Stallworth or Moss.

I'd rather add another couple of LBs for depth. Don't you realize that a single injury, and undrafted, raw, near-rookie, scrubs, like Mays or Alexander are starting! Sign Asante and gets some backup LBs...

Its about building a complete Team, not signing talent.

Good points - especially about the Caldwell/Watson show on offense - but I think you underestimate what a deep threat can do to help other players

And even though we do have more weapons already, let's look at them

Gaffney - 11.8 ypc career average
Watson - 13.8 ypc
Caldwell - 12.5 ypc
Welker - 11.7 ypc

Still not a deep threat in the bunch - in fact, when your TE is a deeper deep threat than any WR on the roster, you've got an issue.

Actually should they actually get a legitiimate deep threat I'd be willing to bet that everyone significantly adds ypc - and indeed, that Caldwell, with another deep threat on the field, can break some deep catches himself.

Obviously I'm not including Jackson in the equation - I'm a big Jackson supporter but I'm not advocating going into a season relying on his contributions as we were forced to last year (BB very much hoped Jackson would be the deep threat last year)

 

[PatsMyBoyz!]

Good points - especially about the Caldwell/Watson show on offense - but I think you underestimate what a deep threat can do to help other players

And even though we do have more weapons already, let's look at them

Gaffney - 11.8 ypc career average
Watson - 13.8 ypc
Caldwell - 12.5 ypc
Welker - 11.7 ypc

Still not a deep threat in the bunch - in fact, when your TE is a deeper deep threat than any WR on the roster, you've got an issue.

Actually should they actually get a legitiimate deep threat I'd be willing to bet that everyone significantly adds ypc - and indeed, that Caldwell, with another deep threat on the field, can break some deep catches himself.

Obviously I'm not including Jackson in the equation - I'm a big Jackson supporter but I'm not advocating going into a season relying on his contributions as we were forced to last year (BB very much hoped Jackson would be the deep threat last year)

Good analysis. It raises the question of how much or to what extent can BB rely upon Chad this year? BB's confidence in his endurance has to be a bit shaken. He's already had a hamstring that seemed to sideline him for a long time and now he has a torn ACL which timewise is still unknown but still-the chances of BB's needing to go to Plan B again this year are pretty good going by CJ's record thus far.
I wouldn't mind Donte Stallworth-I think he'd fill a need and be an asset but most importantly,I think our offense would struggle that much less than they did last year. Last season they had some brilliant games but they also had their share of painful ones and I,for one,would love to see our offense become powerful and confident again.
We'll be good without him but having him would make things much easier and would open up a lot of scheme possibilities too. Our offense would be solid,and if CJ came back-all the better. Don't forget CJ missed the better part of his rookie year on the field. Granted he probably picked up a lot,etcetc but he's also missed a lot. Donte's a veteran.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Good analysis. It raises the question of how much or to what extent can BB rely upon Chad this year? BB's confidence in his endurance has to be a bit shaken. He's already had a hamstring that seemed to sideline him for a long time and now he has a torn ACL which timewise is still unknown but still-the chances of BB's needing to go to Plan B again this year are pretty good going by CJ's record thus far.
I wouldn't mind Donte Stallworth-I think he'd fill a need and be an asset but most importantly,I think our offense would struggle that much less than they did last year. Last season they had some brilliant games but they also had their share of painful ones and I,for one,would love to see our offense become powerful and confident again.
We'll be good without him but having him would make things much easier and would open up a lot of scheme possibilities too. Our offense would be solid,and if CJ came back-all the better. Don't forget CJ missed the better part of his rookie year on the field. Granted he probably picked up a lot,etcetc but he's also missed a lot. Donte's a veteran.

I'm with you - but under that in the best case scenario we have 2 deep threats in Jackson and someone like Stallworth.

In the worst case sceniario signing Stallworth we have one

In the worst case scenario under the belief we're "all set" at WR and Jackson can't get the job done - we have none yet again

BB won't knowingly go into the same situation at WR like that again this year

If this panned out it would be a helluva lineup (number them however you'd like

Caldwell
Gaffney
Welker
Stallworth
Jackson
Brown

That really would be the best bunch of WRs we have had under Brady I think

 

[PatsMyBoyz!]

I'm with you - but under that in the best case scenario we have 2 deep threats in Jackson and someone like Stallworth.

In the worst case sceniario signing Stallworth we have one

In the worst case scenario under the belief we're "all set" at WR and Jackson can't get the job done - we have none yet again

BB won't knowingly go into the same situation at WR like that again this year

If this panned out it would be a helluva lineup (number them however you'd like

Caldwell
Gaffney
Welker
Stallworth
Jackson
Brown

That really would be the best bunch of WRs we have had under Brady I think

Exactly,BB knows there's a need which is why Donte rejecting our offer really blows. With Watson and Wilfork's contracts coming up I don't know how far we'd go to sign Stallworth and I doubt they'd get involved in any bidding wars,dramas,etc but I think BB would love to have him if he can get him. It just opens that offense right up, and Donte is a post-season veteran-with the T-shirts to prove it-huge plus. The only other true veteran there is Troy,and it's pretty safe to say the Pats plan on being in AZ.
All in all,while not a necessity,the addition of Stallworth would definitely make our offense better-much better.

 

[ArmyPatsFan]

I do not think he rejected the Pats offer...I think his greedy agent sticks to the plan to get all the money he can by visiting the teams he said he is going to visit. I believe he left Tenn without a contract as well and is headed to Miami next. Anyway...pft states:

"STALLWORTH DEAL COMING FRIDAY?

Look for receiver Donte' Stallworth to have a new deal in place by Friday.

Per a league source, Stallworth is expected to pull the trigger on a new contract by then. Barring an unforeseen development, such as a late arrival into the bidding for his services, Stallworth likely will have a new team by Saturday.

Stallworth, who played in 2006 with the Eagles, has visited with the Patriots and Titans, and will meet with the Dolphins on Friday. There are conflicting reports as to whether the Eagles have extended an offer to him."