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The Stallworth love

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Big Bucks, Mar 7, 2007.

  1. Big Bucks

    Big Bucks Rookie

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    I don't get the over exorbinate man love this fella is getting from all you guys, I stopped posting a couple years back on this site, older board, but thought I'd join up and ask, why all this love for Stallworth.

    Can all you Stallworth lovers out there please sell him to me, as I don't know where its coming from, I could understand it because he was a regular 1200yd guy but really are you all not going a tad overboard, maybe its me and its the same people over and over trying to brainwash the mases, and its not noticable because they all have patfan"insert #" as usernames.

    So please I need someone to tell me why?! Why do you like him sooooo much.
    Have I missed something here.

    BTW nice to be back :)
  2. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    He simply brings a dimension the offense currently lacks. He has the type of speed and ability to make big plays down the field that we are missing from our WR corp. In 5 years he is averaging 15 yards per catch and has 71 catches over 20 yards, 11 of which were 40 plus.

    By contrast, Gaffney has 27 20+ with just 1 40+ yard catch, Caldwell has 21 and 6, and Welker has 15 and 2.

    That is Stallworth 71 20+, 11 40+. The other 3 WRs combined 63 and 9.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2007
  3. Fumblerooski

    Fumblerooski Rookie

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    Nice post! That about sums it up.
  4. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    I don't really think it is that everyone likes him so much, but that we like him. I liked Stallworth last year when the Saints were shopping him around, and BB did as well, but the Eagles offered more. Stallworth has had some durability problems, but no worse than Branch. Actually Branch has missed one more game than Stallworth.

    I want Stallworth for these reasons:
    1: I think he fits NE's offense well
    2: He is a better route runner than people think (he is not just a speed receiver)
    3: unlike some other sub 4.3 (he has run 4.30, and 4.29 40 times) receivers (B. Johnson) Stallworth actually puts his speed to use, by catching the ball.
    4: Stallworth has a pretty good nose for the endzone with 28 TD's, which is something NE's receiving corp has been lacking.
    5: Stallworth is a fast learner, and has proven he can come right in and perform.
    6: Stallworth played two straight injury free seasons, so I think his durability problems are a bit overblown.
    7: In fewer starts than deion Branch Stallworth has more yards, and better yard per catch average, and ten more TD's.
  5. Big Bucks

    Big Bucks Rookie

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    OK, you have all talked about him in comparison to the other WR's that were on our team, yet you do not compare to others in the NFL, where does he rate amongst the top 20 or 30 WR's in the league.

    Now I can understand everyone being mental over Adalius Thomas because IMO he is a bluechipper LB, why should that same reaction be for Stallworth, you see I think he is an average receiver, one that will come in, like Caldwell and Gaffney to a certain extent and do his job well but not spectacular. I see him as along the lines of Morris, Brady and Welker, all good additions to a quality roster. Stallworth is an average WR, is he not just the #1 free agent WR in a borderline average group of guys.

    Is he a true #1 WR, or should I say CAN he be a true #1 WR.

    I have my doubts.
  6. Dagg

    Dagg Rookie

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    To short IMO we really need a tall reciever around the end zone I would much rather see Moss. I mean whats welker 5'8"?
  7. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    I'm not going crazy over him like he is Thomas, and I don't think he is a top ten WR, or anything. I just think he fits our offense well, and could be one of the best WR's Brady has had. I also think he would be able to put up over 1,000 yards with Brady throwing to him, and he has been close to 1,00 in the past, so I wouldn't put him in the same group as Caldwell. Again, he has 28 TD's in four years, so he has a better nose for the endzone than any of NE's current WR's. Basically I want the guy, but I wouldn't give up a 1st rounder for him (If he wasn't a UFA)
  8. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    Tall receivers (6'4-6'5) don't fit into NE's system well. BB, and Pioli have tried to find a tall WR that fits and they hve failed about five times.
  9. Dagg

    Dagg Rookie

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    Understood but we still need a tall one around the end zone IMO we got Reche Troy and Wes on the short end. Gaffney is of decent size and Brady obviously used him in that capacity around the goal line in the play offs. Moss is taller and a better leaper.
  10. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do we need a true #1 or do we just need another #2 with Stallworth-like characteristics that make him a borderline #1 on this roster and in this scheme?

    I think there are lots of players most of us would prefer to Stallworth - only he's available and they aren't. Do people here get too wound up about him? Absolutely, but I think that is just seeing a better roster with a player like him than without him heading to the draft where we have two first rounders which could then clearly be better spent on defense. Right now we are better equipped on offense than we were last season without Branch or Givens but with Caldwell and Gaffney having a year in the system under their belts and Welker projecting as a younger Troy Brown. But who knows if they'll all be healthy or if last year was not in fact their ceiling. And we don't yet know if Troy will be back, or if a player or two like Patton might free up closer to camp. And while they might further bolster the depth on the roster, they don't do what Stallworth does. We could certainly use a player who does.

    I don't want him at any price. I don't even want him for 6 years at $32M unless there are a lot of performance incentives in the deal and protection clauses in the event of a substance abuse suspension, so it is constructed as one of those 6 year deals that could morph into a 1 year deal with little dead cap if he doesn't pan out. Had he meant what he said about playing for us in a one year deal to prove his value, or had Rosenhaus been willing to let him follow through on that, then I would really want him. At this point I'm really ambivalent.
  11. PatsMyBoyz!

    PatsMyBoyz! Rookie

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    Reiss' Take On Stallworth:

    March 07, 2007
    Stallworth analysis
    ANALYSIS

    The Patriots hosted receiver Donte' Stallworth at Gillette Stadium on Tuesday, and here is how we see the situation playing out:

    From the Patriots' perspective, Stallworth represents a low-risk, high-reward type of signing in the form of a one-year, incentive-filled deal. We don't see the Patriots going long-term with Stallworth based on his injury history, among other things.

    The question is whether Stallworth, who entered free agency thinking big bucks but has initially experienced a lukewarm market, wants to go that route.

    As of now, the market for Stallworth includes the Eagles, Patriots, Titans and Dolphins.

    From the Patriots' side, they have one asset that the other clubs don't have -- quarterback Tom Brady. That is something the team can sell Stallworth, that catching passes from Brady can help revive his market value (in 2008) more so than catching passes from Donovan McNabb (Eagles), Vince Young (Titans) or Daunte Culpepper (Dolphins).

    So if Stallworth is willing to take a short-term, one-year type of deal, the Patriots are in a solid spot. But if he's looking for more of a long-term commitment, he'll probably wind up elsewhere.

    One other factor to consider is the Tennessee angle, as Stallworth played his college ball at Tennessee. The Titans lost Drew Bennett in free agency and they might counter that departure with a Stallworth acquisition that would create somewhat of a buzz in Tennessee.
  12. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    You can have all the doubts you want. If your opinion is that Stallworth is not a good addition, that's fine.

    Most of us do not see him as an average receiver. In the pre-march 1 FA lists, he was the top WR available, in the top ten FAs available overall.

    It sounds like you also believe he is the top WR available, but you prefer to go after a lesser WR.

    However, I think if you compare him to the rest of the NFL, compare the stats of all WRs, you will find him pretty high up there.
  13. Big Bucks

    Big Bucks Rookie

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    Thats the thing isn't it, 6 years @ $32m....IMO he has yet to show me why he is worth those figures, hell Phillidelphia obviously as of yet don't and they arguably have a bigger probelm at WR.
    Although others and I'm not suggesting those in this thread are, more the one line brigade cream themselves over this WR, I think I'll sit back and judge him later if he signs.
  14. bb07

    bb07 Rookie

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    If we give him that much money, why didn't us pay Branch last year.
  15. Sean Pa Patriot

    Sean Pa Patriot Rookie

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    #12 Jersey
    The more I think about it , the 6 yr 32 mill thing was floated around by his agent... I bet we did not offer him those numbers, its more of the idea's to float around to Miami or Tenn...
  16. Big Bucks

    Big Bucks Rookie

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    Maybe I should requote myself
    I see him as along the lines of Morris, Brady and Welker, all good additions to a quality roster

    Then as I suggest people are way overating this group of FA WR's.


    I didn't say anything about going for a lesser WR, I'm fine with Stallworth, but not enamoured as many seem to be on here.


    That is the point, I do not think he is, I think he will be low 20's at best

    On further research looking at the NFL stats for last year, he didn't make the...

    top 30 for yds

    http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/RECYDS/2006/regular

    or top 30 for receptions

    http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/REC/2006/regular

    or top 30 TD's

    http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/RECTDS/2006/regular
  17. bb07

    bb07 Rookie

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    It's probably what they want instead of what we offer. Otherwise he would have signed yesterday.
  18. Big Bucks

    Big Bucks Rookie

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    This worries me tons, not one mention of the fact that Stallworth spent the whole of last year with the Eagles, knows the play book, knows the other players, seemed to have a decent rapport with McNabb who will be back(would not have let Garcia go IMO)

    Name me the Titans WR's........anybody!

    Dolphins will want payback for Welker, IMO they will up the bid just because and are our Div rival

    I'd say the things I point out are very big issues that need to be overcome for him to come to foxboro. I can see these teams not going the 1 year deal.
  19. zippo59

    zippo59 Rookie

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    I'm willing to bet that if Stallworth came here he would be better than Branch.
  20. naclone

    naclone Rookie

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    because branch wasn't a free agent last year.
  21. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    There's no need to look him as a #1WR. There's hardly a need to even assign a number to ANY Patriot WR.

    And looking at Stallworth's overall numbers or comparing them to "top" WRs in the league too misses the point that we are most interested in Stallworth to play a significant ROLE.

    Specifically the role of a deep field threat.

    Last season with our "deep" threat WR averaging 13 yards a catch, defenses were able to move up signfiicantly, use their safeties to blitz, stop the run, or double cover our main receivers Watson and Caldwell. This caused major pressure on Brady,and limited production from our runing and passing game.

    Last season Stallworth - specifically playing the role of deep threat for Philly, averaged 19 yards per catch. Of course that's an average - so to be on the safe side you can count on the fact that safeties will have no choice but to position themselves much more than 6 yards further back... but even if it were "just" 6 yards that would make a meaningful difference to our team.

    Stallworth attained that average of course by bringing in a number of big plays and THAT'S what secondaries will be concerned about preventing - pushing them even deeper down the field

    Most importantly one doesn't need a deep threat WR who will catch 80 passes a season to achieve the desired impact. Like Stallworth, two big catches made a game, along with the threat of several more, is more than enough to keep a defense "honest" and avoid the pressures placed on our offense last season.

    So if you are looking to prove that Stallworth's numbers don't stack up to the "top" receivers in the league in numbers or total yardage - congratulations, you've done so succesfully - but you've fully missed the point of why the Patriots are so interested in Stallworth (and apparently Randy Moss)

    The role for Stallworth is not to catch 80 passes or rack up 1200 yards - it's to do exactly what he did in Philly. 40 passes & 800 yards would be a MAJOR difference maker here, not just for those yards and catches alone, but also in what it does to help our TEs, other WRs, RBs, as well as preventing safeties from having a 15 yard head start on hitting Brady.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2007
  22. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I only care about whether he help our O not whether he is better than player A on Team X. IMO he will make our O better. He had an impact on the Philly O (more when McNAbb was QB than with Garcia). HE is a young guy with a lot of talent, who can improve this team.
  23. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

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    Stallworth is 6-0 196 lbs. He is no lumbering giant, but he is no smurf either. He has pretty good size and speed for the position though. Here is a link to his stats.

    http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302227

    The numbers don't pop out but he is a big play receiver that can stretch defenses which is what we are looking for. If he won't sign I think we need to think WR in the draft. Who knows when Chad Jackson will get healthy again? And he will be behind the curve again if he misses significant amount of training camp due to having to rehab that ACL.
  24. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    But the total number of passes that he catches is not high. Could it be that the ONLY thing he does well, is run deep? Teams then wouldn't use him as a regular receiver, since he stinks at it.

    A sort of self selecting one-dimensional effect.

    Patten was that way, but not as talented. The Pats disn't use him much to move the chains, becasue you couldn't run an offense on relying on his short and intermediate ability for getting open, and catching the ball.
  25. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Probably not the best analogy, but during the Cold War, was it pointless to have nuclear weapons because they weren't used? Or did they have a positive impact as a deterrent.

    The deep threat is a deterrent. Safeties stay back because they don't know whether its coming. It's the home run ball. In baseball, if every player were a ground ball hitter, outfielders would come in just behind the infield (okay now I'm mixing my metaphors but you get the point)

    When your deep threat averages 12.5 yards a catch (which includes those rare ground balls that got through to the outfield) the outfield/secondary would be stupid not to come in with such a low deep ball threat.

    Actually Stallworth's 70 and 60 catch seasons I think show he CAN be used as an all around player - but he has a much greater impact for a team catching just 30-40 passes at 20 ypc.

    Again - don't focus solely on his catches and yards - what would it mean to Ben Watson not to have safeties draped on his back a split second after (or during) the time he makes a catch.

    What would it mean to Cadlwell to not to be double teamed on so many plays. What would it mean to RBs to have defenders more spread out?

    And what would it mean to Brady to have fewer LBs and safeties gunning for Brady's head who ordinarilly would be dropped back in coverage if the field were adequately stretched?

    Everyone seems so focused on Stallworth's low catches they seem to forget that football is a game of chess.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2007
  26. PatsFaninAZ

    PatsFaninAZ Rookie

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    1. He's available.

    2. He runs good, clean, deep routes.

    We need a guy like that.

    We didn't have a single receiver who averaged more than 10 yards a catch last year. When that happens, you shorten the field for the defense, and it's easier for them to make plays like the critical play where we couldn't pick up a first down against the Colts with 2:00 to go.

    Stallworth has consistently played in offenses that have good run/pass balance. In his 5 years, the average pass attempts per game by his teams have been 33, 33, 34, 34, 34. In that environment, he's been good for about 4 catches a game, averaging 15 yards per catch. 70 percent of his catches in his career have been for first downs. 30 percent have been for more than 20 yards. (Also, he's had over 250 total touches and lost only 2 fumbles.)

    Put a guy on this team who is good for 4 15 yard catches a game, and the whole offense gets better. We shouldn't break the bank for him. But of the players available, he's a good fit.
  27. Big Bucks

    Big Bucks Rookie

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    How much money does Caldwell get, take his numbers last year for the Pats which were quite simalar to Stallworth's, is the money that Stallworth would get worth that extra 10yds per catch. I'm thinking not..... 32million is way overpaying for a player that brings the stretch the field ability to the team.
  28. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    I agree. Stallworth already has more yards, has missed one less game, ten more TD's, and a better ypc than Branch, so I can't see why he wouldn't perform well in NE's system.
  29. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Caldwell's contract was offered and signed at a time when Caldwell had never caught more than 28 passes in a season or ever stayed healthy.

    I really don't want to fill my roster with a lot of guys with that resume, hoping they over achieve. So comparing the contract of a career underachiver with a proven deep threat is an apples to oranges comparison.

    I wouldn't put a lot of stock in a 6 year $32 million contract report - supposedly we're offering a 1 year deal, though I do think we'd need to go a little further than that. Even if it were there's no way the full amount of that contract would be "real" - probably more like 3 years at $3 million a season rather than 6 years at $4 million.

    I guess the question is, do you want 5 WRs who are 10ypc guys - and accept the fact that your TE, RBs, WRs & QBs are all going to be facing an incredible amount of pressure, taking hits, never having a chance to break a big play?

    Or do you think there might be some benefit to stretching the field to keep everyone productive and healthy.

    Stats involving solely catches and yards don't take that into account. Clearly, BB & SP recognize this, hence their clear interest in adding a deep threat.
  30. salty

    salty Rookie

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    First off, that 6 year, 32 million dollar deal we supposedly offered has got to be bogus. I am sure that Belichick and Pioli envision Stallworth coming here on a one year deal to prove himself.

    Perhaps they would (or did) offer a longer deal with that kind of money, but I can guarantee you that it would be loaded with incentives and structured in such a way that the Patriots could easily part ways if it didn't work out. After all, the guy has injury concerns attached to him, he has not always been entirely dependable (fantastic one game, dissapears the next), and now there is the substance abuse trouble to boot.

    That said, I think Stallworth would be a good fit, if the contract were very short or easy to offload. We need a deep threat on this offense. I really wonder about the people that question this assertion. Didn't they notice that last year, by mid-season, pretty much every team we faced was stacking the line of scrimmage to take away the first 10 yards? I'm amazed it didn't cripple our offense even more, because teams were able to cue up against the run and pretty much sit on our short timing routes.

    The reason they were able to do that is because they had virtually no fear of being burned by a deep threat or a playmaking wide receiver that could make something happen after the catch. The timing offense will always be our bread and butter, but the potential of a deep passing game would really open up what we do best. The Patriots would be foolish not to try to get a guy that fit the deep threat/playmaker mold for next year. I'm not saying anybody will do (big fat NO to Randy Moss), but I am sure glad they are at least examining their options.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2007

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