Welcome to PatsFans.com

The Shack

Discussion in 'Religion and Lighthearted Discussion' started by Stokes, Jan 15, 2010.

  1. Stokes

    Stokes In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    Finished reading this recently and wondered if anyone else has read it. I am not religious but I did think it was a great idea for a book and found the way god and religion were presented as particularly interesting.

    The back story for those that haven't read it is that a man's young daughter is killed, causing him to (at least inwardly) turn away from religion. He's then invited by letter to spend a weekend with someone claiming to be god at the place where evidence of his daughter's murder was uncovered (the shack).
     
  2. DisgruntledTunaFan

    DisgruntledTunaFan In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,533
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    I've never read it, but FYI - it's very unbiblical.

    THE SHACK: Exposing The Deception

    IOW - the 1611 King James Version bible is THE one and only True Word of God.
     
  3. Stokes

    Stokes In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    Yes I had seen that some groups were coming out against it as it does no favors to organized religion. The main point of the story though is one that I would hope most Christian groups could get on board with.
     
  4. DisgruntledTunaFan

    DisgruntledTunaFan In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,533
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    No - it's b/c these Christian groups saw how The Shack did NOT line up with the bible at all. It's no different, from let's say, Billy Graham and Rick Warren - alot of what they say are heresey, which is why both are false teachers.

    Galatians 1:6-10 - "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from his that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    For do I now pursuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of God".

    Galatians 6:7-8 - "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sowest, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting".

    1st Timothy 4:1-2 - "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"

    2nd Peter 2:1-2 - "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in d@mnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of".

    The Museum of Idolatry: The Shack's False Godhead

     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
  5. Stokes

    Stokes In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    The analysis of the book in the quote is way off. Yes, "god" does appear as an african woman, but that is not god's true form. In fact "she" makes a point of explaining in detail to the man that she only appeared that way for HIM, to break him free of his preconceived notions of what god should look like. She says that if she came to him looking like an older man with a long flowing beard it would be tougher to get through to him and help him recapture his lost faith. The holy spirit is impossible to really focus on, so the description of her as an asian woman is just the closest the man could get to describing her. And Jesus looks like a typical israelite would at that time.

    Again, I agree that there is plenty in the book for organized religions to take issue with. Even that though, is to me not that controversial. God basically says that a lot of evil has been done in the name of organized religion, which is true (the crusades, 9/11, etc.). The whole point that god gets across is that god is love, and by loving god completely you can fulfill your life as a human. It also deals with the idea that loss happens not because god has left us, but because god sees the bigger picture, and in the afterlife we see it too.

    For me it was just a great idea for a book, but yes, I can see how it would make certain groups uncomfortable because it is a departure from traditional christian teaching.
     
  6. DisgruntledTunaFan

    DisgruntledTunaFan In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,533
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    2 Peter 2:18 - "For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error"

    1 John 2:22-23 - "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also"

    I know that God is the God of love, but when it comes to sin and wickedness, he's also an angry God.

    1 The 2:15-16 - "Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost"

    Matthew 12:36-37 - "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned"

    Look - I know what you're saying, but when it comes to the bible, we have to look at it in an OBJECTIVE view, NOT a subjective view(i.e. John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God). This is the big problem with today's church - for various reasons, whether they've been deceived by Billy Graham/Rick Warren, they've been hijacked by Freemasons, whether they're worried over offending anyone b/c of potential offering money losses, or whatever, they've allowed leaven to enter into their churches, and have subsequently fallen for bad doctrines and commandments of men.
     
  7. Stokes

    Stokes In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    You raise an interesting point and I'm interested in your take since you seem to know quite a bit, why would an omniscient being be so concerned with the affairs of man? Why demand loyalty to you as a precondition for a blissful afterlife? Its one of the things dealt with in the book, but obviously not using traditional christian teaching. It seems like punishing lesser, imperfect beings for being imperfect is a petty thing to do.
     
  8. DisgruntledTunaFan

    DisgruntledTunaFan In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,533
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    Another thing - I'm not going to dive into the issue of whether Christians who think Billy Graham/Rick Warren are godly men, or for that matter, those that go to 501c3 corporate churches or even think aliens are people like us are truely saved...

    But both Jesus and the Apostles have stressed many times "be ye not deceived" - I believe the end times prophecies are going to be fulfilled very soon - before Jesus comes back to judge the earth, the antichrist will arise in human form and deceive the whole world by bringing false peace and hope. You should hear Dr. Scott Johnson's studies on Maitreya, Benjamine Creme, and Maitreya's 'ascended masters' - mindblowing. As much as Creme/Maitreya talk like how Christians are enemies, at the same time, they're saying all kinds of things to try to DECEIVE Christians(i.e. at Maitreya's emergence, there will be 4 'spaceships' from the eastern star, where Jesus came from, and then that Maitreya commercial on CNN last year how he's the Christ to Christians, Maitreya to Buddhists, Mohammed to the Muslims, the Messiah to the Jewish people, Krisna to the Hindus, etc - NONE of this lines up with Scripture, of course).

    Anyhow - didn't mean to get off-topic, but what I'm trying to say is that I'm not trying to debate what is/what isn't a salvation issue, but ultimately, over anything, we need to search the scriptures to see if everything lines up. In Matthew 24, Jesus said that when false Christs and false prophets rise up, they will show signs and wonders and even the elect may be deceived. It's very important in these days to have discernment.
     
  9. Stokes

    Stokes In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    An interesting post DTF, but what about my question, why does an all powerful god demand servitude from a lesser being that he created as imperfect?
     
  10. DisgruntledTunaFan

    DisgruntledTunaFan In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,533
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    Matthew 16:24-26 - "Then Jesus said unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

    2nd Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

    Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

    1st Corinthians 15:45-47 - "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."

    Revelation 12:11 - "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto death"

    1 John 2:22-23 - "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also"
     
  11. Stokes

    Stokes In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    You might have to dumb it down for me a little, I don't see how those quotes relate to my questions of why god demands servitude. Also, is god infallible? Does god make mistakes, or is what god does always the right thing? If god is infallible how do we explain his willingness to torture one of his flock just to win a bet with the devil (book of Job)? What kind of god picks sides in the battles of men as he does all through the old testament?
     
  12. DisgruntledTunaFan

    DisgruntledTunaFan In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,533
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    Here's some verses to ponder...

     
  13. OldEngland

    OldEngland On the Roster

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0



    I'm glad you enjoyed it Stokes. I remember reading this when it first came out. It's a great novel (although theologically imperfect) yet it has been of great encouragement and comfort to many people, and there is great love within the pages of this book.


    I'd love to know what you think of the relationships between God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the main character?

    And in particular what you thought of how the Holy Spirit was represented?
     
  14. Stokes

    Stokes In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    You know, I thought the book did a great job capturing how I imagine the way god would relate to a human being, with love, amusement, and sometimes exasperation, but never scorn or anger. The way the trinity interacted was a little tougher to capture I think, since basically any interaction they had that the guy could see was to help make things feel natural for him. I liked how the holy spirit was dealt with, ephemeral but strangely businesslike in her demeanor I thought. Even if the book tried I never felt like she radiated the warmth of god or Jesus. I was also really amused by the character of Jesus, overly happy about everything, almost like the kid in class that gets too excited about helping the teacher (that was how he came off to me anyway). Everything was all about "hey, isn't this great!! Let's eat more vegetables! I love vegetables don't you?!? Made me laugh.
     
  15. Stokes

    Stokes In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    Also DTF posting biblical quotes does not count as discussion to me, I'd love to get into some of the topics I've raised but I'd like some analysis from your end, not just quotes!
     
  16. OldEngland

    OldEngland On the Roster

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0



    I have complete faith God is infallible and is absolute Holiness. The more I continue on this journey, the more I become convinced of this, although I understand you may not agree with me.

    It cannot be coincidence that the men of faith both that are recorded in the period of the writing of the Bible, and others recorded in the 2000 years since that offer complete servitude in their hearts, minds and souls are the people God usually chooses to use as His instruments.

    But why God would chooses us to have a relationship with us, I am not sure, but using Genesis 1, this must have been how it was in the beginning.

    I suppose my understanding at this moment in time why He would want servitude can be reflected in all our lives.

    If you had the choice of someone to work with; I'm sure you would prefer to choose the person who respects you, loves you, has spent their life getting to know you, recognises your voice from others, avoids everything you advise not to do, and would do whatever you asked for the benefit of others without question?

    Those people must be easier to work with (especially if you are infallible). But thankfully due to His grace, He can still have a relationship with us fallible people who mess up every now and again.



    I sometimes meditate on how Job felt about this at the time and afterwards.

    Can I ask you a question?

    Would you suffer as Job did, if it meant that your own experiences would encourage and teach billions of people over thousands of years?


    I don't pretend my answers are complete. What are your thoughts on the questions you posted?
     
  17. OldEngland

    OldEngland On the Roster

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0


    Agreed, I sometimes remind myself how He is our Father, and we must be like a very large family of children to Him, and how we relate to our own families with a mixture of joy, happiness, amusement, exasperation, comforting, correcting, teaching, and how they don’t always follow good advice, only He does it out of pure love that we could never accomplish.

    However there are occasions of anger within both books of the Bible, although much less in the NT.



    Many great men of the faith have portrayed the Holy Spirit in the context of a person, so I liked the analogy. Although I agree it must be very hard to capture the personality of the Spirit of God in a novel, although scripturally the personality traits are reasonably well described.

    I am not sure what your personal experiences of the Holy Spirit are (and it would be interesting to chat about) but in my experience with the Holy Spirit and especially watching Him interacting with others, I just really want to say He radiates with an astonishingly pure, gentle and powerful love that can only really be described as Holy.
     
  18. Stokes

    Stokes In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    I don't think I'm brave enough to suffer as Job did, or as Jesus did for that matter, even if it meant billions living their lives as better people because of it. I'd like to say I would but you start talking leprosy and I'm outta there.

    My thoughts are reflected in the questions themselves, and also in my reaction to the book. Although theologically off-base according to christian canon, I find the idea of god proposed in the book much closer to what could be than what I read in the old testament. It simply doesn't wash to me that god could be both omnipotent and yet demanding of pure behavior from creatures that are by nature imperfect. Its like me asking a gerbil to eat corn but not carrots knowing he's not going to be able to stop himself, then give him carrots and get pissed when he eats them.

    Full disclosure I am an atheist, but I do find discussion of religion an interesting topic and I'm not one to look down on believers as some atheists are.

    Here's the thing about the book of Job: his heart remains pure even after all the torture god puts him through right? By that reasoning god has won the wager with satan right? But doesn't the story show that satan in fact has won, by getting god to torture a righteous man for no other reason than to show he'll keep coming back for more?
     
  19. DisgruntledTunaFan

    DisgruntledTunaFan In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,533
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    Author of The Shack denies John 14:6
    YouTube - Episode of wretched - Author of The Shack is universalist

    BTW-this one's for you...

    Part 1 starts at the 6th video down on the right
    YouTube - jonah70757's Channel
     
  20. Lifer

    Lifer Banned

    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Messages:
    3,287
    Likes Received:
    26
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -0

    so whats the problem with Billy Graham??
     

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>