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The Secondary Is Already Better


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I would definitely want to lock McCourty up long term this offseason if I were the Pats. He's got two years left on his contract, which means they can add cap hits to those two cheap (about $2M each) years in return for never having super high cap hits later in the contract....

I now it sounds like a lot, but I'd definitely be willing to give him $40M in new money over 4 years. That $10M per year in new money would mean he's no better off financially playing out his contract and then looking for a contract elsewhere as a CB, but the per year value of the overall six-year deal would only be $7.3M, which is just below the $8M range that the top safeties are getting.

It does sound like a lot, and I don't think it would require nearly that much $$ to pull off the extension you speak of. Which is a good thing.
 
It does sound like a lot, and I don't think it would require nearly that much $$ to pull off the extension you speak of. Which is a good thing.

Well, the wild card in this equation is his twin brother. It would be difficult to imagine there isn't a little bit of sibling rivalry there. Jason got a 5 year extension with $43 million in new money and $20 million guaranteed. I wouldn't be surprised if Devin is looking at that as a benchmark.
 
Maybe the Lincoln Nebraska F.O.P. just received a big donation?
 
I know I might be in the minority here but I believe the wildcard for the secondary next season is Ras-I Dowling.

Ras-I was a wildcard following his high draft pick status...and again headed into last year...and again into year#3.
Fortunately, this secondary will survive with or without his contributions. I'd love to see him make SOME contribution before he is shown the door next year.

Otherwise, completely agree with the drastic improvements thus far!
 
LCB: Aqib Talib
RCB: Alfonzo Dennard
NB: Kyle Arrington
SS: Adrian Wilson
FS: Devin McCourty

The starting five is great, we really need outside CB depth though, and I'd rather not use one of our top 3 draft picks on one. S depth is fine with Gregory, Wilson, and Ebner.
 
LCB: Aqib Talib
RCB: Alfonzo Dennard
NB: Kyle Arrington
SS: Adrian Wilson
FS: Devin McCourty

The starting five is great, we really need outside CB depth though, and I'd rather not use one of our top 3 draft picks on one. S depth is fine with Gregory, Wilson, and Ebner.
I certainly hope your confidence is warranted. Time will tell.

But a few caveats. Has the Dennard penalty come down? Can't he still go to jail, missing part or more of the season? Adrian Wilson is well past his prime and will turning 34 in October. Have you read Matthew Jones's piece at NEPatriotsdraft.com?
As for [Adrian] Wilson, it remains to be seen whether or not he has anything left in the tank after his skills appeared to suffer significant erosion in 2012. While his signing has been celebrated for providing New England with a physical enforcer in the secondary, the truth is that his run support was lacking last season. In fact, he finished 48th among 55 qualifying safeties in Pro Football Focus’ “stop percentage” within eight yards of the line of scrimmage, signifying that only 2.7% of his snaps as an in-the-box player were negative plays for the opposing offense.
Ouch! Why we signed him to the three-year contract, which boggles my mind, may say something about our second-rounder from last year, Tavon Wilson, who looks more like back-up safety and player in the nickel package. A nice role player that the Patriots may realize is not now starting material. But why not just offer a year or two for Adrian to groom Tavon? Do they expect Adrian to be playing when he's 37 after reportedly regressing so much last year?

The Patrick Chung thing was a debacle. And to think I had held out high hopes for him.

And to expect that Aqib Talib, with his measly one-year contract, is a long-term solution may be wishful thinking. Sorry to the defensive front seven or an offensive tackle (even if Vollmer departs) or even WR where we're desperately thin, but this franchise has a definite need to draft a couple more CBs fairly early. And I don't think they will get lucky again late in the draft like they did with Dennard, who was undersized, underperformed in his bowl--getting thrown out for fighting SC's Alshon Jeffrey (after getting smoked by him a couple of times)--showing up overweight and proceeded to run a slow forty at the Combine, and then a la something out of Jerry Maguire punched an LEO just before the draft. It was like he was hanging around Barney of the Simpsons.

But one never knows. I recall people saying a year ago that another undersized CB, Johnny Adams out of Mich St, was a first-rounder CB, and now he's dropped far, far down, despite running a legit 40 and being a starter for three years. His play wasn't dominant this year, and he was indeed burned a few times, while his counterpart CB, Darqueze Dennard, has NFL scouts drooling for 2014 as a potential first rounder. Teams started attacking Adams because Dennard was a stifling blanket. I'm not sure, though, why he goes from being a first rounder to a sixth rounder like that.

The dramatic wild card, one that Teddy Bruschi has brought up, is not to count out Ras-I Dowling. I'm very excited at the prospect of two tall studs like him and Talib at the corners, giving our defense a totally different look.

There was a reason Dowling was taken before Torrey Smith, the speedy WR from Maryland, in the second round in 2009. It may have been arrogance on Belichick's part in taking a guy who has elite size, speed, and great character--when everyone else knew his history of the injury plague that has unfortunately borne so much fruit the last two years. Dowling was taken first in the second round, basically an extension of the first.

The biggest irony is one of the foremost experts on the defensive secondary not named Nick Saban has had a very mixed record at best at the draft at these same positions.

I think Seattle's Pete Carroll learned from his disastrous pick of the Kansas State player at CB when he was coaching here. Chris Canty. You guys remember him? Short and slow. This mystified me because earlier on the radio Carroll, whose expertise is also the defensive secondary, said if the guy is short, he should have the speed, esp. the recovery speed, to compensate for a lack of reach. Then we get the short, slow guy, who seemed more interested in recording rap albums.

Now take a look at the secondary of Seattle. Huge freakin' monsters--sort of like what we could potentially have in CB's Dowling and Talib. Carroll has obviously learned his lesson. Have we?

Meanwhile, my fear is that when we finally have our defensive secondary in order we'll have gaping holes in our front seven. If Vince ever goes down, for example, we're screwed.

If there were only another Rodney Harrison out there for us. We have never adequately replaced him. Or Randy Moss.
 
Ras-I was a wildcard following his high draft pick status...and again headed into last year...and again into year#3.
Fortunately, this secondary will survive with or without his contributions. I'd love to see him make SOME contribution before he is shown the door next year.
I agree. His injury woes have cost him a lot but the talent is there and if he can put it altogether this season I see no reason why he won't be competing for a starter's role.

Again this opinion probably won't sit well with the masses, but I believe Dowling's a more talented CB than Dennard. A tandem of a fully healthy Dowling and Talib as starters is the best case scenario for the secondary next season, especially with match-ups against other great receiver tandems like Denver's Thomas and Decker, Atlanta's Jones and White looming large. The Texans, Bengals, Saints, Buccaneers, Saints and even now the Dolphins WR corps will also test this secondary mightily in the coming season. It's also wise to have your best line-up out there when going up such tough match-ups especially come playoff time.

Also I think the CB depth chart may need some tweaking. Instead of CB spots #1-5, etc., it should look something like:

Outside CBs
1. Talib
2. Dowling (if fully healthy)/Dennard
3. Dennard/Dowling (depth/back-up)

Nickel/Star CBs
1. Arrington - Special teamer in some instances since Arrington is good at it
2. ? (depth/back-up) - Also a core special teamer. A player like Tyrann Mathieu would be a great fit for this spot and his above average return skills don't hurt either. Though he likely won't be available in the 7th round if the Patriots relinquish the 3rd to Pittsburgh for Emmanuel Sanders unless they do some wheeling and dealing to acquire more picks.

And since your main outside CBs both have had injury issues in the past then you can always use a fourth outside corner as depth in case of emergency who must also help out on special teams. Possibly a veteran who can also play in the slot if necessary and provide leadership or even Malcolm Williams if he has made strides in his development.

A line-up such as that would be a fantastic for next season.
 
I don't care if Adrian Wilson is 60 years old and out there with an oxygen tank on wheels. He is what this defense has been missing for 5 years. The moment LaRon Landry signed with the Colts, Adrian Wilson became the best thing we could do for our Secondary this Free Agency. I've also heard that he's a nutrition freak and takes exceptional care of himself.

Why do teams pass all over us in the middle of the field? Because there's no repercussion of getting blown up by a monster hitter. Teams can send their scrawny speedsters all across the middle of the field and get away with it. Not anymore.
 
This thread title was validated at the time Adian Wilson put ink to paper!

Not enough love, or appreciation around here, for this signing....


IT'S HUGE!

I don't see how signing a 34 year old safety is "HUGE." He definitely brings a physical presence to the middle of the field, but he lacks coverage skills and I can't imagine hes getting faster and stronger at age 34. I like the signing, although 3 years seems way too long, its probably more like a 2 year deal on paper. I just don't expect it to be some Rodney Harrison level impact on our secondary, its just a good veteran signing.. Hopefully he can help mentor Tavon Wilson into that role for the future.
 
Adrian Wilson cant cover.

Arrington is back. If Talib or Dennard (assuming hes not making license plates) goes down, old Kyle gets to showcase his Corner skills. Counting on Dowling to do anything is like waiting to see Sasquatch.

Everyone thought the Pats secondary was all set with Bodden returning to health and McCourty coming off a pro bowl season. That proved to be wishful thinking.

More needs to be done.



I agree, although there aren't many teams in this league that would have a good CB situation if both of their starters went down. Kyle Arrington as a #3 is pretty good compared to some situations. If he was needed to, he could kick outside to a starting CB role. Obviously he's better suited at nickle, but its nice having that depth and experience if you needed to, because Arrington is going to be better than some JAG you sign out of free agency.
 
I don't see how signing a 34 year old safety is "HUGE." He definitely brings a physical presence to the middle of the field, but he lacks coverage skills and I can't imagine hes getting faster and stronger at age 34. I like the signing, although 3 years seems way too long, its probably more like a 2 year deal on paper. I just don't expect it to be some Rodney Harrison level impact on our secondary, its just a good veteran signing.. Hopefully he can help mentor Tavon Wilson into that role for the future.

Wilson playing 20yds off the LoC he will be playing zone and helping with overall communication in the secondary. Having an experienced set of eyes has a tremendous amount of value in a young secondary.

Wilson playing in the box will defend the run and pick up TEs and RBs in coverage better than anyone that was on the 2012 AFCCG active roster.

That is why the signing is huge
 
Wilson playing 20yds off the LoC he will be playing zone and helping with overall communication in the secondary. Having an experienced set of eyes has a tremendous amount of value in a young secondary.

Wilson playing in the box will defend the run and pick up TEs and RBs in coverage better than anyone that was on the 2012 AFCCG active roster.

That is why the signing is huge

Veteran leadership is definitely something that the secondary could take great advantage of. Thanks for explaining his strengths and how he'll be able to contribute, I'm looking forward to next year, there is a lot to be optimistic about!
 
We have made a good start. That we are already better than last year is a low bar, but an important one, given how dire the situation was a week ago.

We have re-signed our starter and nickel back. We have replaced Chung by signing Wilson.
The inexperienced kids should be better: Dennard, Wilson, and perhaps even Dowling and Ebner. Talib should play more than last year. The secondary will be together for all of camp.
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Our big debates now are how many more to add and at which position. We can add a mid-level player (a fine idea), camp competition, ST specialists, and/or draft choices.

It is great to have options. We should not lose sight of the fact that the team we have today could start the season and be expected to be better than last year. I would certainly prefer an upgrade over our #5 corner. That we are still looking for improvement is a GREAT thing.
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I think the secondary will be much better just because it appears to be going into camp with each player having designated positions rather than the last 2 years of having our #1 corner move to safety mid season or later. As we all know sports are about reputation and this secondary might finally have that this season.
 
Wilson is a starting safety, Gregory is not....he's another playmaker and a veteran presence that you can add to the team.

the general complaing has been that the secondary is lacking playmakers...well, adding Wilson/Talib certainly is adding playmakers. guys who will be in the right place at the right time.
 
I know I might be in the minority here but I believe the wildcard for the secondary next season is Ras-I Dowling.

From an athletic perspective he may be New England's most physically gifted CB though he hasn't been fully healthy long enough to show it. He's a fabulous athlete brimming with a lot of untapped potential.

I always had the theory that the front office envisioned the role eventually taken over by Talib to have been for Dowling as it was tailored made to his skill set and his excellent coverage abilities. Had he stayed healthy last season and played up to his capabilities they probably don't trade for Talib at all. His injuries forced a knee-jerk reaction to cause a trade motivated by desperation.

Although, this is probably a make or break (no pun intended) year for him, if he can finally start living up to his potential that may change the defensive landscape even more.

I'm with you. If you had 2 big 6'1 plus CB in Talib and Dowling on the outside with Dennard as the star CB this is a top defense. I think Dennard is a good outside CB but he would be an all pro in the slot with his build and play style. Arrington could chill on the bench and count his $16 million.
 
The key is that we got back who we had when the secondary was playing reasonably well last year (when all were healthy). In addition, we might have Dowling and will have Wilson.

The nervous nellie's (me among them), had little to worry about. The market for secondary players allowed us to accomplish what we did and still have fifteen million or so left for other needs.

This secondary will be much better than last year's version, if for other reason than they will have experience playing together.

They will also be better to the degree that we improve our pass-rush. A healthy Jones should help. Armstead should help. And our pending free agent acquisition should help (whoever he is).
 
Veteran leadership is definitely something that the secondary could take great advantage of. Thanks for explaining his strengths and how he'll be able to contribute, I'm looking forward to next year, there is a lot to be optimistic about!

The veteran leadership is a big key. After Talib went down, remember how BAL was moving the ball in the 2nd quarter and throughout the rest of the game? 3 straight 2nd 1/2 touchdowns at home.....Unacceptable.

We can blame the pass rush, injuries and the offense for not scoring in the
2nd 1/2, but mental toughness on the defensive side of the ball is a major difference between championship defenses and just-ok defenses.

I believe Wilson - even if he plays at the exact same level as last year helps this team.
 
I'm with you. If you had 2 big 6'1 plus CB in Talib and Dowling on the outside with Dennard as the star CB this is a top defense. I think Dennard is a good outside CB but he would be an all pro in the slot with his build and play style. Arrington could chill on the bench and count his $16 million.

Dennard is not a Slot CB. He's shorter and stocky with short arms. His physicality is what helps him on the outside. On the inside, his physicality can be turned against him or completely nullified by stronger slot receivers. Arrington has quite a bit better burst and change of direction than Dennard as well.

I don't know what it's going to take this board to realize that Arrington is one of the best Slot CBs in the game.
 
I'm with you. If you had 2 big 6'1 plus CB in Talib and Dowling on the outside with Dennard as the star CB this is a top defense. I think Dennard is a good outside CB but he would be an all pro in the slot with his build and play style. Arrington could chill on the bench and count his $16 million.

Dennard is not a Slot CB. He's shorter and stocky with short arms. His physicality is what helps him on the outside. On the inside, his physicality can be turned against him or completely nullified by stronger slot receivers. Arrington has quite a bit better burst and change of direction than Dennard as well.

I don't know what it's going to take this board to realize that Arrington is one of the best Slot CBs in the game.
As VrabelJr has pointed out, Dennard's skillset is better suited to be an outside CB where he can use the sidelines as a leverage point for his physical style of play. This won't work as much in slot where there are more areas to cover and lateral quickness is paramount more so than physicality. There seems to a common misconception that slot corners are just your shortest, smallest CBs that can't play on the outside. The same misconception applies to... slot receivers.

Sure you can have small, quick tough guys like Antoine Winfield or Cortland Finnegan but the common theme with those players is their great lateral quickness and change of direction skills to keep up with the Wes Welkers of the NFL. Another type is the Big Nickel safety type with coverage skills to play in the slot like Tyvon Branch, and Eric Berry types do. All those players are also great tacklers. Something Dennard has not always been consistent with.

That's not to say that Alfonzo couldn't play in the slot but he wouldn't excel at like Kyle Arrington does who is the best for that position on New England's roster.
 
PLaying the star DB position is more about technique than quickness. The star needs to play his leverage correctly and force the slot receiver to his help on the defense.
 
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