The right wide receiver?

[varjao]

I think Dobson can be a very serviceable receiver, when healthy, I have some concerns on his availability to stay on the field.

Boyce almost didn't play last season, can't ask much, he had a good catch against Atlanta and then that little stretch at the end of season when everybody was hurt.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Hmm...

Kelvin Benjamin 6'5" 240 4.61 13 32.5" 09'11" 4.39 7.33
Benjamin Watson 6'4" 258 4.57 34 35.5" 10'03" 4.15 7.39

I understand why KB's frame, wingspan and movement have enormous appeal. But I'm surprised that he's consistently portrayed as such a measurables freak. He had the single worst 3-cone time of any receiver at the Combine and the 2nd-worst shuttle, plus a lousy 10-yard split.

Wasn't really talking about Combine measurables, more about just his size, wingspan, just overall talent, We've never had a RECEIVER (not TE) like Benjamin. I'm gonna laugh when Benjamin becomes a star for another team like I had a feeling Brandon Marshall and Vincent Jackson would be (wanted the Pats to draft those guys).

 

[Kontradiction]

Wasn't really talking about Combine measurables, more about just his size, wingspan, just overall talent, We've never had a RECEIVER (not TE) like Benjamin. I'm gonna laugh when Benjamin becomes a star for another team like I had a feeling Brandon Marshall and Vincent Jackson would be (wanted the Pats to draft those guys).

I actually remember you banging the table for Marshall at the time. You definitely weren't alone.

 

[patchick]

Wasn't really talking about Combine measurables, more about just his size, wingspan, just overall talent, We've never had a RECEIVER (not TE) like Benjamin. I'm gonna laugh when Benjamin becomes a star for another team like I had a feeling Brandon Marshall and Vincent Jackson would be (wanted the Pats to draft those guys).

Full props on Marshall and Jackson, but those two actually highlight my concerns about Benjamin: despite their size, they both had elite quickness. So do the other successful supersized WRs, like A.J. Green, Calvin Johnson, even Riley Cooper. Meanwhile, the guys with great size but less burst and quickness: Dwayne Jarrett, Malcolm Kelly, Mike Williams.

Can you find a single successful NFL WR with a 1.62 10-yard split and a 7.33 3-cone?

 

[mikey m]

Wouldn't like the Robinson choice. Like others have said tape indicates he's 6'3 edelman type. Nothing wrong with that I just don't think we need that and certainly not in the first round. Guess I'm the only one here with an Odell Beckham crush tho lol. From what I've seen he can run the full route tree, hands catcher snags the ball away from his body, good return man and has good speed/catch radius(granted he's only 5'11) to go along with it. Would personally only consider wr in the first if he's there. Would still be fine with going DL,OL,TE tho depending on value or trading out is definitely fine by me. Deep wr draft and grabbing Abbrederis, Coleman, t.j Jones in the mid/late rounds could be a nice option.

Edit: also would be ok with not drafting a receiver at all

 

[manxman2601]

Hmm...

Kelvin Benjamin 6'5" 240 4.61 13 32.5" 09'11" 4.39 7.33
Benjamin Watson 6'4" 258 4.57 34 35.5" 10'03" 4.15 7.39

I understand why KB's frame, wingspan and movement have enormous appeal. But I'm surprised that he's consistently portrayed as such a measurables freak. He had the single worst 3-cone time of any receiver at the Combine and the 2nd-worst shuttle, plus a lousy 10-yard split.

You just compared him to a TE (a first round TE) but then compare his numbers to other WRs. If Benjamin is on our roster, I'm pretty sure he'll be playing a move TE type role with us, or a big slot WR role depending on how one wants to name it. Now if we're looking for a fairer comparison, how about pitting him against one of the best in class of this type:

Kelvin Benjamin 6'5" 240 4.61 13 32.5" 09'11" 4.39 7.33

Eric Ebron 6-4, 250, 4.56, 24, 32, 10'03", 4.45, 7.49

And Ebron is being referred to as having freakish athleticism. In that regard, Benjamin stacks up pretty well.

 

[patchick]

You just compared him to a TE (a first round TE) but then compare his numbers to other WRs. If Benjamin is on our roster, I'm pretty sure he'll be playing a move TE type role with us, or a big slot WR role depending on how one wants to name it. Now if we're looking for a fairer comparison, how about pitting him against one of the best in class of this type:

Kelvin Benjamin 6'5" 240 4.61 13 32.5" 09'11" 4.39 7.33

Eric Ebron 6-4, 250, 4.56, 24, 32, 10'03", 4.45, 7.49

And Ebron is being referred to as having freakish athleticism. In that regard, Benjamin stacks up pretty well.

Oh, absolutely. If Benjamin is willing and able to play a TE role, he becomes a totally different prospect to me.

You'll see that in a followup post I did compare his numbers to other WRs, and found that every comparable prospect I could dig up -- Dwayne Jarrett, Malcolm Kelly, Mike Williams -- was a bust. It's certainly possible that Benjamin could buck that trend, but IMO he's too risky for a high draft pick at WR. He'd be much more intriguing to me as a joker, but does he have the strength?

 

[Big-T]

Before getting injured, Dobson was starting to show signs he was used to the NFL and would become a threat:
vs Miami 5 catches, 60 yards, 1 TD
vs Pitt 9 catches, 130 yards, 2 TD

He had 5 games with 50+ yards and 1 game with 49 yards. 25 of his 37 receptions were for a first down. All that was in 11 games (he played 12 but in 1 he wasn't even targeted in the game).

Then he got injured in that Steelers game and didn't do much the rest of the way.

 

[sircole]

Oh, absolutely. If Benjamin is willing and able to play a TE role, he becomes a totally different prospect to me.

You'll see that in a followup post I did compare his numbers to other WRs, and found that every comparable prospect I could dig up -- Dwayne Jarrett, Malcolm Kelly, Mike Williams -- was a bust. It's certainly possible that Benjamin could buck that trend, but IMO he's too risky for a high draft pick at WR. He'd be much more intriguing to me as a joker, but does he have the strength?

I don't know his strength numbers.

I really do not like Benjamin as a prospect because he only has one year of good production in college and a reported bad attitude.

I just think a possible positive role Benjamin could offer the Patriots is at the TE position.

 

[Kontradiction]

Before getting injured, Dobson was starting to show signs he was used to the NFL and would become a threat:
vs Miami 5 catches, 60 yards, 1 TD
vs Pitt 9 catches, 130 yards, 2 TD

He had 5 games with 50+ yards and 1 games with 49 yards. 25 of his 37 receptions were for a first down. All that was in 11 games (he played 12 but in 1 he wasn't even targeted in the game).

Then he got injured in that Steelers game and didn't do much the rest of the way.

If Dobson becomes the player we saw in the Steelers game, we have a potential monster at split end. Get a flanker that can kill opposing defenses outside the numbers and this passing offense will be pretty good for years to come.

 

[Brady6]

Trying to figure out what Coach42 disliked about my OP that motivated him to dislike it. I think somebody needs to google forum icons and figure out what they mean.

 

[patchick]

Trying to figure out what Coach42 disliked about my OP that motivated him to dislike it. I think somebody needs to google forum icons and figure out what they mean.

It's the cut of your jib, man!

(Or, more likely, he wasn't objecting to your post but just disliked the idea of a high draft pick on a WR.)

 

[TruthSeeker]

I actually remember you banging the table for Marshall at the time. You definitely weren't alone.

Thank you sir !

 

[cstjohn17]

With more time to think, it looks like the #29 pick would be an upgrade over the bottom 3rd of Patriots WRs but I still don't think that is enough to warrant a first round pick.

The top 5 WRs are pretty much set either for performance reasons or investment reasons (low salary, cap consequences). Perhaps a specialist who can also work as a returner can challenge Boyce can be brought in but there will be a pretty decent run on WRs in round 1.

The 2nd round pick gets very interesting but for round 1 I hope they don't "waste" a pick at WR.

ESPN WR Debate
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-...id/4762191/draft-video-gauging-wide-receivers

 

[TruthSeeker]

Before getting injured, Dobson was starting to show signs he was used to the NFL and would become a threat:
vs Miami 5 catches, 60 yards, 1 TD
vs Pitt 9 catches, 130 yards, 2 TD

He had 5 games with 50+ yards and 1 game with 49 yards. 25 of his 37 receptions were for a first down. All that was in 11 games (he played 12 but in 1 he wasn't even targeted in the game).

Then he got injured in that Steelers game and didn't do much the rest of the way.

I loved seeing Dobson progress during the season, That Pittsburgh game was awesome, really showed the kind of talent he can be. He was my favorite draftee last year.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Full props on Marshall and Jackson, but those two actually highlight my concerns about Benjamin: despite their size, they both had elite quickness. So do the other successful supersized WRs, like A.J. Green, Calvin Johnson, even Riley Cooper. Meanwhile, the guys with great size but less burst and quickness: Dwayne Jarrett, Malcolm Kelly, Mike Williams.

Can you find a single successful NFL WR with a 1.62 10-yard split and a 7.33 3-cone?

Seriously, we are going to base a players whole career on 3-cone speed ? I go by the ey-ball test, and from what I've seen, in BIG games, Benjamin shows up and dominates. Calvin Johnson has rare speed for his size. 4.61 at 6'5" is pretty damned good, Jerry Rice ran a 4.6, and he dominated in a time where defensive backs could molest receivers. Not comparing the 2, but at 6'5" 235 and good speed, dbs will have trouble with Benjamin. I can only dream of him and Dobson wide, Edelman in the slot, Gronk at TE, and Vereen out of the backfield, who do you cover ? Especially in the red zone. 3 big bodies and 2 slippery quick twitch guys.

 

[patchick]

Seriously, we are going to base a players whole career on 3-cone speed ? I go by the ey-ball test

I respect the notion of trusting your eyes over combine numbers, but if decent 10-yard splits and 3-cone times really didn't matter then we should be able to find examples of WRs who succeeded without them. I went back over the past 8 drafts and couldn't find a single one. Short WRs, WRs with marginal straight-line speed, yes, but poor burst and quickness, no, regardless of size. Towering receivers like D. Jarrett, M. Kelly and M. Williams all passed scouts' eyeball tests enough to be high draft picks, yet couldn't get separation against NFL DBs.

As I said earlier, I'd be more intrigued in Benjamin as joker prospect (heaven knows that position could use some talent in this draft!) But lacking tape on him playing that role, I consider him too big a risk to consider in round 1.

 

[manxman2601]

I respect the notion of trusting your eyes over combine numbers, but if decent 10-yard splits and 3-cone times really didn't matter then we should be able to find examples of WRs who succeeded without them. I went back over the past 8 drafts and couldn't find a single one. Short WRs, WRs with marginal straight-line speed, yes, but poor burst and quickness, no, regardless of size. Towering receivers like D. Jarrett, M. Kelly and M. Williams all passed scouts' eyeball tests enough to be high draft picks, yet couldn't get separation against NFL DBs.

As I said earlier, I'd be more intrigued in Benjamin as joker prospect (heaven knows that position could use some talent in this draft!) But lacking tape on him playing that role, I consider him too big a risk to consider in round 1.

I don't know about 10 yard splits, but Ochocinco, Anquan Bolden and Steve Smith all had worse 3-cones. But, that is a bit like the exception that proves the rule. Those are the only three I can find.

My issue with Benjamin as a first round pick is that his only role is as a big slot WR. I think he can be successful there, but I wouldn't want to commit a first round pick on such a limited role.

 

[BobDigital]

When I look at WRs I rarely care about combine numbers unless they are bad or off the wall great. Otherwise I tend to go by the tape generally. I don't care if one guys runs a 4.40 and another runs a 4.50. To me it is more about have WR speed and as long as you are in a reasonable range it can work.

The things I need to see a WR do to be a first round guy are...

1) can they get legit separation (meaning not blown coverage but making a cut and getting open)?
2) are they sure handed (underrated aspect of being a WR... working on hands to make them better is a myth more than not)?
3) Does he understand body position? For example I saw Beckham on his highlight reel make a "jaw dropping catch". He was behind the DB but reached from behind to get the ball and scored a TD after the run I think. This to me is a HORRIBLE play. He had time to come back and get in a more competitive position but didn't. Also worse comes to worse he should either knock it down or commit defensive pass interference. In the NFL that is a pick
4) can they make an NFL catch? A lot of WRs in college turn around to catch the ball after getting open. Commentators say "WOW look how his speed got him SO open" instead of calling bad D what is it. In the NFL that almost never happens. You don't get time to slow down; face the ball in the open field and then turn and run after. That play means nothing to me. The way you catch in the NFL is right after a break or an over the shoulder while running full speed or something of the like. Let me see that on tape. These are reasons I don't love Beckham & Cooks. Too much of this kind of catch and have not seen them make enough of the other.
5) Can they run a route (some guys don't have to though but generally it is a good thing).

A lot of others too but this is what I'd look at first. Like I said I only like 4 guys in this draft to do these things as well as carry the load as a #1. Watkins, Evans, Lee & Robinson.

 

[patchick]

I don't know about 10 yard splits, but Ochocinco, Anquan Bolden and Steve Smith all had worse 3-cones. But, that is a bit like the exception that proves the rule. Those are the only three I can find.

Nice hunting! I do think it's telling that you had to go back to guys drafted a decade or more ago to find examples.

I get why people disparage an overfocus on measurables. At the end of the day, the guy has to be able to play football. It also doesn't help that too much attention tends to be paid to the WRONG numbers.

But IMO the right measurables for the right position play a key role in projecting how well a player's success will translate from college to the NFL.