The Reputation of our defense

[sbpatfan]

Making Chad Henne, Dan O., and Vince Young look like Dan Marino is not good defense, no matter which way you slice it. This secondary is going to break records being historically terrible.

 

[RobertWeathers]

what I mean by development is bigger picture.......I don't think the player learn anything on this team as backups there may be a small exception with scar and the OL..

I actually think Scar gets a little bit too much credit. Hes a great coach but they have drafted OLs high as well and had excellent talent to work with. If you look at the OLs that have played consistiently on this team, they have either been high draft choices or FAs. Same as every other position on this team.

the secondary? I look at everyone they've drafted and not one player got any better from the time they first put on a pats uniform....including mccourty and chung who are supposedly regulars once they get healthy. same with the LB's and WR's

I don't agree, IC. I'm going back a few years but I recall Asante being a nickel/dime guy in 03. Merriweather was a reserve in 07. Hobbs was a reserve starting the 05 season. In 09 Chung played sparingly.

I promise you if you look at every single NFL roster and their draft history, their rate of sucess in drafting and developing talent is on par with what BB is doing here. Some positions better than others...

 

[VJCPatriot]

One word: Talent. You can only "coach 'em up" so far. BB the coach is great. BB the GM has had a recent history of poor drafting on the defensive side of the ball.

Starters vs Colts, 12/4/2011:
DL: Vince Wilfork; 1st round
DL: Kyle Love; undrafted
DL: Andre Carter; 1st round
LB: Rob Ninkovich; 5th round
LB: Jerod Mayo; 1st round
LB: Niko Koutouvides; 4th round
CB: Devin McCourty; 1st round
CB: Kyle Arrington; undrafted
S: James Ihedigbo; undrafted
S: Nate Jones; 7th round
S: Matthew Slater; 5th round

average round: 4.5*

2004 Patriots
DE: Richard Seymour; 1st round
DL: Vince Wilfork; 1st round
DE: Ty Warren; 1st round
OLB: Willie McGinest; 1st round
ILB: Tedy Bruschi; 3rd round
ILB: Ted Johnson; 2nd round
OLB: Mike Vrabel; 3rd round
CB: Asante Samuel; 4th round
CB: Ty Law; 1st round
SS: Rodney Harrison; 5th round
FS: Eugene Wilson; 2nd round

average round = 2.1*

* undrafted = 8th round

Ouch, our starting D in 2011 vs 2004. Pretty sobering. It's amazing BB is getting as much out of them as he has so far.

The keys still remain the same on defense.
As far as run D the Pats are still pretty solid. (#10 overall according to nfl.com.)
But passing D, well that's a combination of DB performance and pressure. (#32 overall...)
When we get pressure, the D looks good, when we don't, you're looking at 66% conversion rates on 3rd down.

 

[DaBronxPats14]

C'mon seriously?! Our Defense is what it is. It's like a roller coaster ride. Brady puts up big numbers & points we cross our fingers hope for'da best that we have a W end of'da game. Giants game was there for us. We had a lead just needed to close it out.

Verse teams Like Steelers, Packers or Saints.......
Are you confident enough with:

a) Our present defense we have now
b) Our defense fully healthy & back as starters
c) It doesn't matter who we play on D we're DOOMED!

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Making Chad Henne, Dan O., and Vince Young look like Dan Marino is not good defense, no matter which way you slice it. This secondary is going to break records being historically terrible.

Helpful hint during the holiday season.

Football is a 60 minute game.

In the future, ya might want to consider actually watching the part that isn't when Chad Henne, Dan O, and Vince Young are not late in the game and down by multiple scores.

That also counts on like ya know....the score board.

 

[JMarr]

***
It's painfully obvious that the game on Sunday was used as a test bed to evaluate personnel and scheme for the playoffs. If your IQ is north of about....6, it should be obvious.

I understand fans being peeved about the score getting that close. I'm sure Belichick was a lil' peeved.

However, peeved aside. The reality is it's better to win closer while completing playoff prep vs winning by a larger score and NOT doing any playoff prep.

Why is this true?

If your goal is to win the Lombardi, it's a good bet that Green Bay and New Orleans will be an opponent. They are both fantastic offenses. Defeating either team will require an outstanding gameplan. A great gameplan that will require perfect execution. You can never be too preparted for that scenario.

If you have an IQ north of 6, this should be automatic. For several it's not, why?
***

Yea because the same gameplan and schemes they used against Orlovslky and the Colts' offense will be very similar to those they use to stop QBs like Rothlesberger, Brees, or Rodgers.

This idea that BB used this game as some kind of an experiment against a lowly opponent runs counter to everything we know about him. He may have tried a couple of new wrinkles on D, but make no mistake that he played this game to win, and win convincingly--just like any other game.

You've taken making excuses for a poor defensive showing to a whole new creative level, and to call people idiots who say this defense has major deficiencies makes you look foolish.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Yea because the same gameplan and schemes they used against Orlovslky and the Colts' offense will be very similar to those they use to stop QBs like Rothlesberger, Brees, or Rodgers.

This idea that BB used this game as some kind of an experiment against a lowly opponent runs counter to everything we know about him. He may have tried a couple of new wrinkles on D, but make no mistake that he played this game to win, and win convincingly--just like any other game.

You've taken making excuses for a poor defensive showing to a whole new creative level, and to call people idiots who say this defense has major deficiencies makes you look foolish.

Hey

Let me guess, you are trying to show off for Illegal Contact?
How sweet

Why did Dan Orlovsky wait till late in the third quarter while trailing 31-3 to "get hot"? He wants to be like Vince or Chad or Jason?

Ever ponder that or were you too busy collecting Skittles from your unicorn?

Why do you disregard the portion of the game when the outcome is actually being decided?

 

[JMarr]

Hey

Let me guess, you are trying to show off for Illegal Contact?
How sweet

Why did Dan Orlovsky wait till late in the third quarter while trailing 31-3 to "get hot"? He wants to be like Vince or Chad or Jason?

Ever ponder that or were you too busy collecting Skittles from your unicorn?

Why do you disregard the portion of the game when the outcome is actually being decided?

Let me guess, you've conveniently forgotten everything there is to know about Belichick to justify your inane argument. BB's teams play 60 minutes of football. When there are playoff seedings at stake, there are no exceptions that I know of--ever. Hell, even with nothing at stake [ex. Giants 2007], letting up is not in his vocabulary.

If you think BB thought the game was decided after three quarters, sorry but I can't help you--unless you think he has suddenly lost his mind and decided to coach like Norv Turner would.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

The keys still remain the same on defense.
As far as run D the Pats are still pretty solid. (#10 overall according to nfl.com.)
But passing D, well that's a combination of DB performance and pressure. (#32 overall...)
When we get pressure, the D looks good, when we don't, you're looking at 66% conversion rates on 3rd down.

And yet BB's answer to not getting pressure is to ignore stud pass rushers in the draft and instead draft tons of DB's and cut them in two years or so because they can't cover for 30 seconds per play.

 

[IllegalContact]

I actually think Scar gets a little bit too much credit. Hes a great coach but they have drafted OLs high as well and had excellent talent to work with. If you look at the OLs that have played consistiently on this team, they have either been high draft choices or FAs. Same as every other position on this team.




I don't agree, IC. I'm going back a few years but I recall Asante being a nickel/dime guy in 03. Merriweather was a reserve in 07. Hobbs was a reserve starting the 05 season. In 09 Chung played sparingly.

I promise you if you look at every single NFL roster and their draft history, their rate of sucess in drafting and developing talent is on par with what BB is doing here. Some positions better than others...

I wasn't talking about playing time.....meriweather, samuel (going back 8 years to find a decent example makes my point), and hobbs aren't here, and I don't think chung is any better than when he was a rookie.

given the fact that BB leverages draft picks for quantity, this method does not seem to work.

 

[IllegalContact]

Hey

Let me guess, you are trying to show off for Illegal Contact?
How sweet

Why did Dan Orlovsky wait till late in the third quarter while trailing 31-3 to "get hot"? He wants to be like Vince or Chad or Jason?

Ever ponder that or were you too busy collecting Skittles from your unicorn?

Why do you disregard the portion of the game when the outcome is actually being decided?

LOL.......the score at the end of the game is all you understand....and then you'll sit there and scratch your head when the pats get pounded in the playoffs

 

[Rob0729]

I don't care about the reputation of the defense as long as the Pats keep winning. People can look at all the yards the Pats give up and ignore the fact that QBs like Chad Henne, Dan Orlofsky, and Vince Young got most of their yards in garbage time. Stat padding is great for fantasy football, but not for actually winning games.

No the Pats do not have a great defense, they are closer to middle of the pack. Their reputation is that they are the worst. GOOD! Let opposing offenses think they can score at will on this team and then let the Pats shut them down when it counts like they have for the most part this season other than their three losses.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I wasn't talking about playing time.....meriweather, samuel (going back 8 years to find a decent example makes my point), and hobbs aren't here, and I don't think chung is any better than when he was a rookie.

given the fact that BB leverages draft picks for quantity, this method does not seem to work.

For you to say that Chung is the same player now than he was in 2009 is absurd.

I am showing you a pattern which is that BB has a lengthy track record of all of the above methods in drafting a player an experiencing immediate sucess, being slowly integrated into the program and being an abject failure.

If you choose not to acknowledge this or any of the other 31 team's success and failure in drafting and developing players I don't know what to tell you.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Let me guess, you've conveniently forgotten everything there is to know about Belichick to justify your inane argument. BB's teams play 60 minutes of football. When there are playoff seedings at stake, there are no exceptions that I know of--ever. Hell, even with nothing at stake [ex. Giants 2007], letting up is not in his vocabulary.

If you think BB thought the game was decided after three quarters, sorry but I can't help you--unless you think he has suddenly lost his mind and decided to coach like Norv Turner would.

Yeah a four point differential in the Super Bowl is the same as a 28 point lead in Week 13.

That about sums it up on the intellect front.

 

[JMarr]

Originally Posted by JMarr
Let me guess, you've conveniently forgotten everything there is to know about Belichick to justify your inane argument. BB's teams play 60 minutes of football. When there are playoff seedings at stake, there are no exceptions that I know of--ever. Hell, even with nothing at stake [ex. Giants 2007], letting up is not in his vocabulary.

If you think BB thought the game was decided after three quarters, sorry but I can't help you--unless you think he has suddenly lost his mind and decided to coach like Norv Turner would.

Yeah a four point differential in the Super Bowl is the same as a 28 point lead in Week 13.

That about sums it up on the intellect front.

I'll take a wild guess that reading comprehension wasn't one of your strongest subjects.

 

[loloooooooooooo]

Making Chad Henne, Dan O., and Vince Young look like Dan Marino is not good defense, no matter which way you slice it. This secondary is going to break records being historically terrible.

they didn't look like Dan Marino... they looked like Matt Cassell on his 400 yard games. And those were not close to dan marino like

 

[IllegalContact]

For you to say that Chung is the same player now than he was in 2009 is absurd.

I am showing you a pattern which is that BB has a lengthy track record of all of the above methods in drafting a player an experiencing immediate sucess, being slowly integrated into the program and being an abject failure.

If you choose not to acknowledge this or any of the other 31 team's success and failure in drafting and developing players I don't know what to tell you.

what's the lengthy track record? out of recent players, I'll say that you can make an argument for chung although there hasn't been much of a difference with him versus without him....

so what's the lengthy track record? who has been developed into a solid player? i'm not talking about david givens....I'm talking about guys who are on the current roster or ones who have been cut in the last couple of years.....they show up, and either they can play or they can't and you can just bury them right then and there.

 

[RobertWeathers]

what's the lengthy track record? out of recent players, I'll say that you can make an argument for chung although there hasn't been much of a difference with him versus without him...

so what's the lengthy track record? who has been developed into a solid player? i'm not talking about david givens....I'm talking about guys who are on the current roster or ones who have been cut in the last couple of years.....they show up, and either they can play or they can't and you can just bury them right then and there.

I'm looking at BB's track record since he implemented his program. For recent players, did they develop Myron Pryor? Brandon Deadrick? Vollmer? Did they start all of those players immediately? The answer is no. Does developing undrafted rookies and another team's castoffs count? Ninkovitch? Woodhead? BJGE? Did they develop Brady or was he still "The Golden Boy" while he was living in a 900 sq ft townhouse in Wrentham?

I'd suggest you read your 1st post on the subject. You asked the question is it bad drafting/scouting or poor player development that contributes to a player not working out here. The answer is both- not either/or.

Honestly, do you think the Pats are the only team that has trouble drafting, developing players?

 

[RayClay]

I think the bigger issue is what the staff does with the talent once it gets here......there seems to be little progress for most if not all draft picks in terms of development. the gronks, mayos, vollmers, solders and even mccourty last year all showed up and executed immediately....did not need a shred of development to be effective. then there are all the others who over a couple of years just can't seem to get it right. and this is based on one of 2 possibilites.....1) wheatley, tate, price, crable, butler, brace, cunningham and the sort were bad picks from the get go and the problem is poor scouting 2) the scouting is actually good, but the staff can't complete the development picture that existed when the choices are made.


its one or the other......

Have you ever considered that 31 other teams are looking at all these hot shot rookies for weaknesses in their games?

Let's look at this logically. we have the worst draft position almost every year, along with a couple other teams.

The teams with the best draft position, draft higher, and must develop players better than us, since we suck, according to you.

Most of the teams who have better talent choices and develop players better than us, suck out loud most seasons.

We have three Super Bowls and 11 straight winning seasons.

If you are right, please explain to me the logical inconsistency of my post, given that we can't draft and can't develop players.

 

[Ring 6]

I wasn't talking about playing time.....meriweather, samuel (going back 8 years to find a decent example makes my point), and hobbs aren't here, and I don't think chung is any better than when he was a rookie.

given the fact that BB leverages draft picks for quantity, this method does not seem to work.

The Patriots have been more successful than any team in the NFL since BB has been here, so it would appear the method does work.