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The Reputation of our defense

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by NG Pats Fan, Dec 5, 2011.

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  1. NG Pats Fan

    NG Pats Fan Rookie

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    We used to be known as the gritty, clutch, hard nosed physical Defense who always knew how to come up with the big play when it mattered. It was such a treat to watch. In just 4 years(since 2007), our reputation has now diminished to the point where every fan, expert, coach in America laughs at our defense. It is now considered the very worst in the NFL. It's "New England's defense sucks". Just tonight on NFL Network, one guy said how Tim Tebow hasn't faced a Belichick led defense yet, and our very own Willie McGinist interrupted and said "Well this Belichick defense is not good.(he laughs). Not good at all." Hearing that just made me shake my head. How is it that the best defensive minded coach in NFL history, could let a defense go from top 5, to a bottom 5 D? This was the guy who coached that amazing Giants Defense in the late 1980s. The man who coached/developed the greatest defensive player of all time...Lawrence Taylor. The man who coached the amazing New England D during the Dynasty years. How could he possibly have let this happen? With all those draft picks? What is Belichick's philosophy when it comes to drafting defensive talent? What traits does he look for in defensive players?
  2. loloooooooooooo

    loloooooooooooo Rookie

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    it helps to have a secondary filled with people who should be working at Walmart and the good players being on IR. The Pats D being the worst is far from true, the Packers Saints, or Bears have worse defenses. Why? because Belichick is good at situational Defense, it doesn't matter how much points you give up as long as you give up less than you score. He's been good at getting the stops that matter. How many yardage you give up honestly doesn't matter
  3. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    All Bill Parcells and our players got old?

    Hey, did you hear we got 11 winning seasons in a row and we're in line for the top conference seed?

    Is the NG for negative?
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
  4. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    95% turnover over 5 years will do that for a defense
  5. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    One word: Talent. You can only "coach 'em up" so far. BB the coach is great. BB the GM has had a recent history of poor drafting on the defensive side of the ball.

    Starters vs Colts, 12/4/2011:
    DL: Vince Wilfork; 1st round
    DL: Kyle Love; undrafted
    DL: Andre Carter; 1st round
    LB: Rob Ninkovich; 5th round
    LB: Jerod Mayo; 1st round
    LB: Niko Koutouvides; 4th round
    CB: Devin McCourty; 1st round
    CB: Kyle Arrington; undrafted
    S: James Ihedigbo; undrafted
    S: Nate Jones; 7th round
    S: Matthew Slater; 5th round

    average round: 4.5*

    2004 Patriots
    DE: Richard Seymour; 1st round
    DL: Vince Wilfork; 1st round
    DE: Ty Warren; 1st round
    OLB: Willie McGinest; 1st round
    ILB: Tedy Bruschi; 3rd round
    ILB: Ted Johnson; 2nd round
    OLB: Mike Vrabel; 3rd round
    CB: Asante Samuel; 4th round
    CB: Ty Law; 1st round
    SS: Rodney Harrison; 5th round
    FS: Eugene Wilson; 2nd round

    average round = 2.1*

    * undrafted = 8th round
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2011
  6. NG Pats Fan

    NG Pats Fan Rookie

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    Andrew,

    Thanks a bunch for those statistics!
  7. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Take that first defense. Then watch as almost every player moves on, for one reason or another. Replace those players with guys who couldn't start on the earlier defense.


    There you have it.
  8. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, let's compare a full healthy 2004 defense to the 2011 defense at it's second lowest point! Dowling healthy takes off 6 rounds, Chung back takes off 3-5, Spikes takes off 2. That's half the difference right there.


    Maybe we should look at things in reverse, and figure out why the 2003 offense was putting up 30% fewer points than it is now.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2011
  9. Jackson 2

    Jackson 2 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Honestly, I don't give two flying f$%^$ what Willie M., Ty Law, Rodney Harrison, Tedy B., Troy Brown or anyone else says about this defense. They're all blowing smoke up someone's ***** and they're all getting paid good $$ to do so. Right now, this defense doesn't look good enough to me to win a SB. However, there is no QB in the AFC who scares me to the point where I say we couldn't beat him and his team, particularly if we play at home with a bye. Assuming we get to the SB (not a lock by any stretch), and we play GB with that defense, I'd believe we'd have a puncher's chance, at least, with Brady in a dome. If GB were to get upset somehow by SF, I'd believe we'd have a better chance. NO, now there's a team I'd be wary of. Anyway, all this wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth over this defense and our chances at this point is Chicken Little shyt. The most spoiled fanbase in America is just going to have to wait until this plays itself out. For chrissakes, is it that hard to take some simple enjoyment from 9-3 and being the current top seed in the AFC? Wow, what a crappy spot to be in with 4 weeks left. That's it, I'm off my soapbox.
  10. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    Are you trying to argue the 2011 defense (fully healthy) is comparable in talent to the 2004 defense?
  11. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    Fully healthy 2011 defense:
    DL: Vince Wilfork; 1st round
    DL: Kyle Love; undrafted
    DL: Andre Carter; 1st round
    DL: Brandon Deaderick; 7th round
    LB: Rob Ninkovich; 5th round
    LB: Jerod Mayo; 1st round
    LB: Brandon Spikes; 2nd round
    CB: Devin McCourty; 1st round
    CB: Kyle Arrington; undrafted
    S: Patrick Chung; 2nd round
    S: James Ihedigbo; undrafted

    average round: 4th*

    * undrafted = 8th

    If you think Dowling would start over Arrington, you're delusional.
    Maybe you'd put in Gerard Warren over Deaderick; new average = 3.5.
  12. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Like I said, injury replacements makes up for half the difference in your round analysis. That's just one of many reasons I think finding the average round of the starters is a horrible statistic.

    Healthy 2004 = 2.1
    Healthy 2011 = 3.3
    Current 2011 = 4.5
  13. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    Because looking at the 2003 offense will tell us why the defense has gotten so much worse since the dynasty years?

    What?

    There's so much stupid in this post, I had to respond 3 times.
  14. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's hilarious, because he DID start over Arrington in the two games he played. Is Belichick delusional too? Actually, that's a bad question, because you apparently think he is.
  15. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    Sure it's a silly statistic, but it highlights the point that there is a significant disparity between talent.
  16. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The point is that teams change over time. Why are we talking about how much worse the defense has gotten rather than how much better the offense has gotten? Both are true.

    That's not stupid you're replying too, it's logic.
  17. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    So your reason for why the defense has gotten worse is because teams change over time?

    Illuminating.
  18. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And using draft round is a horrible way to measure talent. The Pats' offense consists of a 6th rounder throwing to two 2nd rounders, a 4th rounder, and an undrafted player, handing off to an undrafted player, and being protected by players drafted in the 2nd, 1st, "8th," "8th," and 2nd. Average round: 4.6, worse than the defense the Pats fielded last game.
  19. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    Ok. I'll give you that. It's a silly way to measure talent.

    Answer this then: is the 2011 healthy defense comparable in talent to the 2004 defense?
  20. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, but it's not because of where they were drafted. I don't have any problem with the talent statement, but your way of trying to show it is garbage.
  21. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    Yeah it's pretty stupid.

    Let's do it this way:

    Combine the best players on the 2011 defense and the 2004 defense. Who would you start?

    DE: Seymour
    NT: Wilfork
    DE: Warren
    OLB: Vrabel
    ILB: Bruschi
    ILB: Mayo
    OLB: McGinest
    SS: Seymour
    FS: Wilson
    CB: Law
    CB: Samuel

    Only Mayo and Wilfork (who played in the 2004 defense) would cross over. Chung plays SS.
  22. randomk1

    randomk1 Rookie

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    I'd take the 04 offense over any we have had in recent years.

    Balanced attack with Corey Dillon,better OC,clutch receivers,OL that doesn't **** the bed when it counts.
  23. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    It's mostly because the core of that defense was at their peak and had played together 8-10 years.

    By the way, I don't know why you have Ty Law on the 2004 champs since he missed the last nine games and the playoffs. Hank Poteat and Randall Gay weren't exactly pro bowlers.

    That was the fourth Super Bowl season for Law Bruschi and McGinest, third for Vrabel.

    Is someone really arguing our current defense is better than 2004? lol. It's the defense we have. No reason to believe we can't win if we play better when it counts, but our offense is currently our best feature, same as N.O. and Green Bay.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2011
  24. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's mostly because those players were much better players, some of whom had a great deal of experience, but others of whom did not.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2011
  25. sly24

    sly24 Rookie

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    I think it says a lot about coaching when we play all these anonymous guys and still have a top 10 defense (points allowed). A coach can only do so much though. The guys we had pre 2008 were not only good at playing their positions but also had the intangibles. They came up big when needed (fumble, sack, interception). That is unfortunately something you can't really know when you draft a player. Rodney was arguably THE playmaker and the spark of that defense. BB prepared to replace him (drafting Meriweather) but it didn't work out so now we have to start all over again at safety.

    Also, if 2010 McCourty could finally show up, I think we'd be ok at corner. It's basically the safeties that are killing us.

    I think this week against the Colts the defense played very well. We were up 31-3 I think when our offense decided to have like 3 straight 3 and outs. That doesn't exactly help a defense during garbage time.
  26. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    I wonder how long the Yankees have been complaining they really aren't as good as that '27 offense?

    Dimaggio, Mantle, Maris, yeah, yeah, it just ain't the same.
  27. sly24

    sly24 Rookie

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    wait, you have Seymour starting at SS over Rodney? hahaha I'm just messing with you.
  28. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    I strongly disagree. You think an undersized situational rusher playing inside linebacker would suffice? That's all Bruschi was at first.

    It is an absolute fact that the great teams consisted of players who had played together for a while and developed a rapport, as well as having developed their individual talents. Of course a real lot of people here agree with you that all you need to do is put a bunch of high draft choices on the field and you'll win.

    I don't. I believe in team sports, teamwork and great coaching.
  29. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Seymour was not an undersized situational rusher.

    Washington/Wilfork was not an undersized situational rusher.

    Pfifer/Cox/Colvin/Harrison etc... hadn't been with the team for 8 years.

    Etc... Etc.... Etc....


    And your attempt to categorize my argument on this topic (high draft choices only, as opposed to teamwork and coaching) is pretty much completely wrong, as most of your attempts have been of late.

    Brady's a 6th round pick. I'm not asking for him to be replaced by Eli Manning.


    Yours was a very amusing post, though, given your earlier position on BB's lack of high draft pick usage for linebackers.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2011
  30. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    1. Lack of a defensive coordinator

    2. No coach can possibly stay ahead of the curve for 20 years straight in terms of trying to stop evolving offensive schemes and rules that change

    3. (related to #1) Generally I don't think players respect BB (or many coaches for that matter) as much as they used to, resulting in the need for BB to constantly cut talented players, as well as draft certain types of players in the interests of controlling the lockerroom and keeping it team-oriented. The SB defenses were so successful because he had leaders like Rodney, McGinest, Vrabel and Bruschi keeping the more selfish players in line, not to mention Crenell who played a huge part.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2011
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