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The Poor Stay Poor

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatriotsReign, May 10, 2012.

  1. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

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    #18 Jersey

    The Poor Stay Poor

    The poor stay poor - Economy

    "The spread between the rich and poor has also widened, as income inequality increases. The difference in median income between the highest and lowest quintiles was $80,500 during the 1996-2006 period. That's nearly $30,000 more than it was two decades earlier."

    Not sure what other's thoughts are on this, but I have a couple....

    -If one is on gov't assistance and doesn't work their tail off to better themselves, do they deserve to be "better off" today than they were 20 years ago?

    -People who experience some success typically work for more success and market themselves for jobs that pay more over time.

    The "poverty-cycle" isn't about victims...or at least if one wants to get out of it, they have to stop being a victim and do something about it. That is no one's responsibility but the individual.

    My annual earnings went from near poverty 20 years ago to almost 6 times that salary today. Did I have to work for it? Yes, I did.

    One can't rely upon gov't assistance and then cry about being in the same place 20 years later if you're still on gov't assistance.
     
  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think there are all sorts of issues:

    - More people than we like to admit are cognitively impaired or otherwise disabled and have no idea or cannot move on.
    - More people than we like to admit really do not have the money to even take the bus and job hunt on a regular basis, plus poor people tend to live in areas where jobs are few and far between.
    - Most poor people work close-to-minimum wage jobs that often don't guarantee regular hours. They are often very tired from these jobs and very discouraged.
    - Middle class people tend to take for granted the advantages of culture, race, family background, etc. that contributed to their ability to succeed.
    - Poor people tend to be discriminated against in our legal system so are more likely to have CORIs (and not the resources to even seal them), which makes it even more difficult for them to find work.
    - Many poor people have physical and social limitations that make add to the difficulty of them getting ahead. If you're exceptionally short, tall, unattractive, etc., you sometimes live with insecurities that are hard to overcome.
    - That said, there are people who play the system, hire corrupt lawyers, etc., and we need to do something about them.

    The reality is that most people are not exceptional and do not have the skills to leave the class they were born into.

    I think we need to replace welfare with workfare, even though it will cost the taxpayers significantly more to provide wages, job training, facilities, daycare, and basic benefits. I think everyone should work (except for the small number who need to be institutionalized).
     
  3. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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    aren't many of them simply too lazy? or is laziness some kind of "don't bother me, I'll laways be poor" excuse?


     
  4. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    I think that's a good idea and it just might turn a culture of total consumers to one that also has producers.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2012
  5. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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    yes.....we would feel much better about ourselves if a person could manufacture his own TV, microwave, and kegerator as well as the beer.

    the first 2, you can likely score the parts at u-do-it electronics. the 3rd one is doable by finding a small fridge on craigslist, cutting a hole in the top and mounting a tap
     
  6. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    I have no idea what your point is here.
     
  7. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Gotta get to work, ironically, so only replying to this para - I love how you "discover" this concept and get "yeah that's a good idea," but nobody here would pay for any of the component pieces (of course "yeah that's a good idea" might just be 1 or 2 guys.) It is a good idea, but if they ever did it this board would overload in about 5 minutes with a recursive loop of apoplectic posts about socialism, communism, and of course fascism, which the right wing now likes to pretend was a left wing movement.


    The knee-jerk against helping the poor out of dependent situations was so extreme the Dems even gave up on it - ever notice how the entire focus is now triage, keeping more of the middle class from becoming poor?


    Glad to see we still care, I'm with ya Patters... but the rest of you guys, if I see a big fat thread where you support these programs to end welfare because that phrase sounds good now, be ready to support it bill by bill (re-training, daycare, etc. at taxpayer expense.)

    PS, careful about "everybody should work"

    These people should not:

    - People who are taxed at 15% because they don't work for a living
    - Their wives

    However children should work and single parents should simultaneously work, take care of their children so they don't grow up wild, and get an education (with no money.)

    That's how we do it...
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2012
  8. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There is no mention of gov't assistance in the article, so not sure how you put that into play...

    This seems to be more about the working poor, than welfare recipients...

    You do not need an economist to tell you that the poor and middle class are stagnant, while the rich are getting richer and solidifying their position at the top.. take a ride in any affluent ocean front community and note the number and type of homes being built.

    Commencing with the tax cuts for the rich, it has only gotten worse..

    There are a lot of folks working at the bottom in marginal jobs, with marginal income, with no hope of upward mobility..

    Programs like workfare, denote increased state/local intervention.. thus more bureaucracy, more employees and probably a classic f.. up.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2012
  9. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    I was sincere when I said it I thought was a good idea if you were taking a shot my way, maybe I'm paranoid. I admit i'm big on personal responsibility but at the same time I know people in a culture of total dependence aren't just going to spontaneously combust it. They'll need need some help with everything Patters mentioned. And how much more will it cost us anyway? A good portion of it would be coming from what's being paid for already to keep people poor and dependent on assistance . If it does succeed then more people will work their way out of that situation and will be paying a lot more of their own way than they did.
     
  10. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    In my experiences with subsidized housing, and the tenants that recieve it, the free bennies become a lifestyle. Very few tenants, matter of fact only one, in the decade plus that I've been doing this, has moved out and into a market type property. Sure some of the people are indeed unable to further themselves due to physical contraints or what have you, but many of the able bodied simply choose not to. As I've been told directly, why would you go out and work harder, and make life harder, when you can work less, and have a less stressful lifestyle. So while there are definately people who need assistance, and can't better themselves through no genuine fault of their own, there are lots more who simply prefer to work and pay at a 30 cents on the dollar rate.
     
  11. Ilikehappyppl

    Ilikehappyppl 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Class:
    3 tiers just like a 3 storey house

    Poor
    Middle class
    Rich

    Just like a house if you have a weak foundation and a very weak 2nd storey, your 3rd floor is gonna collapse on itself, its just a matter of time.

    The issue most have is Government involvement dealing with class levels, well on the other side of the coin is the businesses of this country and the problem most of them have with being ,cheap,selfish,self-centered.

    We wouldn't need welfare if businesses paid a fair wage
    We wouldn't need SSDI,SSI,SS if businesses paid a fair wage
    We wouldn't need food stamps if businesses paid a fair wage

    We are in this mess because of businesses and the people that run them, you don't like paying high taxes? Pay your employees more so they don't need handouts.....its really a simple problem, caused by the rich.

    We wouldn't need min wage, if businesses would pay a fair wage
    We wouldn't need regulations if businesses wouldn't act to evil and greedy

    Safety Net's are only around because of the failure of our businesses, if you want smaller Government stop being so damn selfish and greedy, pay a fair wage and watch all the people get off of welfare....

    Everyone makes its sound like the poor enjoy being poor because its easy, most people I know want a good life and want to work for it, very few people have I met that were just lazy and didn't care, you can find a few examples but they're not the rule.


    Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.

    "Plato"

    Edit: I agree with Patters we should we re-do the system and make it a workforce thing, were if you need help you have to work for it and you'll get training and a wage on top of that. It might cost more in the short term but it will have a great long term effect.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2012
  12. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You won't believe this I AGREE WITH YOU.
    Poor people should be trained to work to support themselves, many people hate Wal Mart & McDonalds but how many people nationwide do these two companys employ, the people that do work for them are supporting themselves they don't depend on the Taxpayer & the Government to feed them and pay their rent, everybody goes to College today, College Grads don't want to work in Wal Mart or be a cashier in a supermarket, train the welfare people, get them off welfare and while they are at it GET RID OF THE CAREER WELFARE LEECHES AND WELFARE DRUNKS.
     
  13. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Please define "a fair wage".
     
  14. Ilikehappyppl

    Ilikehappyppl 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    More then $7.25hr

    More then the poverty level: 2 people at $15,130 a year.
    What Is Poverty? - Oregon Center for Public Policy

    A fair wage would be around 30k-35k to pay for kids,house,retirement,healthcare and others things.

    Imagine, a world without welfare!!! How nice it would be!:rocker:


    Edit: We could cut all welfare programs and SS,FS and other things. Just need companies to pay a fair wage, in return your taxes would go down, the less you pay the more taxes you pay thus increasing the size of government to cover the cost of helping people out so they can afford food and healthcare.

    The best way to slim the government is to pay people a fair wage, pay people more and government less.....its a novel idea!
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2012
  15. Ilikehappyppl

    Ilikehappyppl 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    Pretty much this,

    1st exmaple:Today

    Ceo-$500k a year
    Mangment-$350k a year
    Mangers-100k a year
    Workers-25k a year


    2nd example: Maybe Tomorrow

    Ceo-$300k a year
    Mangment-$175k a year
    Mangers-$75k a year
    Workers-$50k a year

    Now everyone makes good $$$ and people don't need government help! All it takes is a little bit of sacrifice on some people's part.
     
  16. khayos

    khayos In the Starting Line-Up

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    All your posts sound like a bitter poor person... it's hilarious... at least you're consistent.
     
  17. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Ok, a company that has 1 CEO, 25 management, 100 managers, and 2,000 workers.

    The reductions amount to $4,825,000. The increase amounts to $50,000,000.

    question: where does the additional $45,175,000 come from?
     
  18. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #75 Jersey

    Actually he sounds like I did at age 24, before I entered the real working world.

    Until then I had summer jobs, part-time jobs, 3 years in the Army, and 2 more back to college working part-time. Not a good background to see how the world really works.

    The way to help the poor and midldle class the most is with a booming economy. That means lower taxes, less (not eliminate all) regulations, cut back on the growth of government. The bigger the economy the more competition for workers, the more competition for workers,the higher the wages and benefits.

    I'm not on the side of the "rich", I just know that taxing them more does not do the poor and middle any good.
     
  19. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Taxing them less does not do much good either, as evidenced by the past 11 years... keep waiting for it to trickle down, just like Ronnie Reagan promised.
     
  20. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Not really........

    Wal-Mart owners have more wealth than 30% of Americans while their low-paid employees require $86mill in government assistance annually « watchingthegov

    And that's just California......look up Walmart and any other state and you'll find the same thing.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2012

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