The Perception of Losing Super Bowls/Championship Games

[CISGS]

This has always perplexed me.

Everyone always says:

• Michael Jordan is 6-0 in Finals
• Joe Montana is 4-0 in Super Bowls

Someone explain to me why being 4 - 2 in Super Bowls is not considered better than being 4-0? 4-2 means that you MADE the Super Bowl 2 more times, as opposed to losing prior to the game 2 more times.

This loss by the Patriots will be a complete afterthought next year, but if we would have gotten the 2 point conversion and lost to Carolina, it would forever be apart of Brady's "Legacy".

 

[FourierSeries]

It would have been tough to beat Carolina with the way the Oline played. That's another reason why the loss doesn't bother me a whole lot.

However, we're going to have a lot of fun on this forum if Manning is 1-3 in the SB in just under 2 weeks from now.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

This has always perplexed me.

Everyone always says:

• Michael Jordan is 6-0 in Finals
• Joe Montana is 4-0 in Super Bowls

Someone explain to me why being 4 - 2 in Super Bowls is not considered better than being 4-0? 4-2 means that you MADE the Super Bowl 2 more times, as opposed to losing prior to the game 2 more times.

This loss by the Patriots will be a complete afterthought next year, but if we would have gotten the 2 point conversion and lost to Carolina, it would forever be apart of Brady's "Legacy".

The perception is that Montana and Jordan don't fail in the biggest stage. Neither of them had lost a championship.

You can always counter this argument by pointing to Wayne Gretzky, the best hockey player ever, lost 2 championships - 1983 v the Islanders and 1993 v Montreal. No one ever says he isn't the GOAT in his sport.

Also, Joe Montana got his butt whooped by Bill belichick a few times. In 1986 the 49ers lost to the Giants 49-3. Brady has never lost a playoff game by that kind of margin.

 

[aluminum seats]

This has always perplexed me.

Everyone always says:

• Michael Jordan is 6-0 in Finals
• Joe Montana is 4-0 in Super Bowls

Someone explain to me why being 4 - 2 in Super Bowls is not considered better than being 4-0? 4-2 means that you MADE the Super Bowl 2 more times, as opposed to losing prior to the game 2 more times.

This loss by the Patriots will be a complete afterthought next year, but if we would have gotten the 2 point conversion and lost to Carolina, it would forever be apart of Brady's "Legacy".

It's reason #7,647 why people are stupid, that's why.

I was listening to Mike Francesa in NY last week, and someone called asking about Chuck Noll vs. Bill Belichick, and how Belichick was going for #5. Francesa made the asinine point that Belichick could never match Noll, as he had already lost 2 Super Bowls and Noll was 4-0. Missing, as you note, the obvious point that Belichick was therefore being penalized for performing better in certain seasons than Noll.

People are stupid explains a lot.

 

[Ring 6]

The perception is that Montana and Jordan don't fail in the biggest stage. Neither of them had lost a championship.

You can always counter this argument by pointing to Wayne Gretzky, the best hockey player ever, lost 2 championships - 1983 v the Islanders and 1993 v Montreal. No one ever says he isn't the GOAT in his sport.

Also, Joe Montana got his butt whooped by Bill belichick a few times. In 1986 the 49ers lost to the Giants 49-3. Brady has never lost a playoff game by that kind of margin.

Losing on the small stage so you don't even get to the big stage is failing worse than getting there and losing.

By this logic the loser of the CCG is 'more clutch' than the loser of the SB. Hell the loser of the WC round would be more clutch than the team that made it to the SB and lost. Stupid logic, and an argument only made by someone with an agenda.

 

[Saint Pat]

People are obsessed with the idea of perfection. If the Patriots had gone 19-0 in 07 then there would have been no doubt about who the GOAT QB is regardless of what TB12 would have done or how many Super Bowls losses he would have had afterwards.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Losing on the small stage so you don't even get to the big stage is failing worse than getting there and losing.

By this logic the loser of the CCG is 'more clutch' than the loser of the SB. Hell the loser of the WC round would be more clutch than the team that made it to the SB and lost. Stupid logic, and an argument only made by someone with an agenda.

Hmm, interesting idea...that makes Mariota the most clutch QB of 2015.

 

[wheresmosi]

At the beginning of this season, I still leaned slightly toward saying Montana was better than Brady. Near the end of this season, I said Brady had topped him in my mind. But after the loss at Denver, I was on the fence again--would Montana have failed to complete the comeback on the 2 point conversion, etc. etc.? On the other hand, Montana was never rushed from a million directions in 1 second flat.

But, it is helpful to see Montana's actual play off won-loss breakdown--I'll come back and discuss. BTW, Montana has allegedly said that he already thought Brady was the best ever even before last year's SB, and I suspect Brady would be reluctant to hear that he was better than Montana, his boyhood idol. But anyway:


Day Date Tm Opp Tm Opp
1 Sun January 3, 1982 W San Francisco 49ers New York Giants 38 24 boxscore
2 Sun January 10, 1982 W San Francisco 49ers Dallas Cowboys 28 27 boxscore
3 Sun January 24, 1982 W San Francisco 49ers N Cincinnati Bengals 26 21 boxscore
4 Sat December 31, 1983 W San Francisco 49ers Detroit Lions 24 23 boxscore
5 Sun January 8, 1984 L San Francisco 49ers @ Washington Redskins 21 24 boxscore
6 Sat December 29, 1984 W San Francisco 49ers New York Giants 21 10 boxscore
7 Sun January 6, 1985 W San Francisco 49ers Chicago Bears 23 0 boxscore
8 Sun January 20, 1985 W San Francisco 49ers N Miami Dolphins 38 16 boxscore
9 Sun December 29, 1985 L San Francisco 49ers @ New York Giants 3 17 boxscore
10 Sun January 4, 1987 L San Francisco 49ers @ New York Giants 3 49 boxscore
11 Sat January 9, 1988 L San Francisco 49ers Minnesota Vikings 24 36 boxscore
12 Sun January 1, 1989 W San Francisco 49ers Minnesota Vikings 34 9 boxscore
13 Sun January 8, 1989 W San Francisco 49ers @ Chicago Bears 28 3 boxscore
14 Sun January 22, 1989 W San Francisco 49ers N Cincinnati Bengals 20 16 boxscore
15 Sat January 6, 1990 W San Francisco 49ers Minnesota Vikings 41 13 boxscore
16 Sun January 14, 1990 W San Francisco 49ers Los Angeles Rams 30 3 boxscore
17 Sun January 28, 1990 W San Francisco 49ers N Denver Broncos 55 10 boxscore
18 Sat January 12, 1991 W San Francisco 49ers Washington Redskins 28 10 boxscore
19 Sun January 20, 1991 L San Francisco 49ers New York Giants 13 15 boxscore
20 Sat January 8, 1994 W Kansas City Chiefs Pittsburgh Steelers 27 24 boxscore
21 Sun January 16, 1994 W Kansas City Chiefs @ Houston Oilers 28 20 boxscore
22 Sun January 23, 1994 L Kansas City Chiefs @ Buffalo Bills 13 30 boxscore
23 Sat December 31, 1994 L Kansas City Chiefs @ Miami Dolphins 17 27 boxscore

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Longevity seems to be overlooked. Mark Rypien and Doug Williams both led the Washington Redskins to separate titles only to be forgotten a short time later.

 

[The Brandon Five]

At the beginning of this season, I still leaned slightly toward saying Montana was better than Brady. Near the end of this season, I said Brady had topped him in my mind. But after the loss at Denver, I was on the fence again--would Montana have failed to complete the comeback on the 2 point conversion, etc. etc.? On the other hand, Montana was never rushed from a million directions in 1 second flat.

But, it is helpful to see Montana's actual play off won-loss breakdown--I'll come back and discuss. BTW, Montana has allegedly said that he already thought Brady was the best ever even before last year's SB, and I suspect Brady would be reluctant to hear that he was better than Montana, his boyhood idol. But anyway:


Day Date Tm Opp Tm Opp
1 Sun January 3, 1982 W San Francisco 49ers New York Giants 38 24 boxscore
2 Sun January 10, 1982 W San Francisco 49ers Dallas Cowboys 28 27 boxscore
3 Sun January 24, 1982 W San Francisco 49ers N Cincinnati Bengals 26 21 boxscore
4 Sat December 31, 1983 W San Francisco 49ers Detroit Lions 24 23 boxscore
5 Sun January 8, 1984 L San Francisco 49ers @ Washington Redskins 21 24 boxscore
6 Sat December 29, 1984 W San Francisco 49ers New York Giants 21 10 boxscore
7 Sun January 6, 1985 W San Francisco 49ers Chicago Bears 23 0 boxscore
8 Sun January 20, 1985 W San Francisco 49ers N Miami Dolphins 38 16 boxscore
9 Sun December 29, 1985 L San Francisco 49ers @ New York Giants 3 17 boxscore
10 Sun January 4, 1987 L San Francisco 49ers @ New York Giants 3 49 boxscore
11 Sat January 9, 1988 L San Francisco 49ers Minnesota Vikings 24 36 boxscore
12 Sun January 1, 1989 W San Francisco 49ers Minnesota Vikings 34 9 boxscore
13 Sun January 8, 1989 W San Francisco 49ers @ Chicago Bears 28 3 boxscore
14 Sun January 22, 1989 W San Francisco 49ers N Cincinnati Bengals 20 16 boxscore
15 Sat January 6, 1990 W San Francisco 49ers Minnesota Vikings 41 13 boxscore
16 Sun January 14, 1990 W San Francisco 49ers Los Angeles Rams 30 3 boxscore
17 Sun January 28, 1990 W San Francisco 49ers N Denver Broncos 55 10 boxscore
18 Sat January 12, 1991 W San Francisco 49ers Washington Redskins 28 10 boxscore
19 Sun January 20, 1991 L San Francisco 49ers New York Giants 13 15 boxscore
20 Sat January 8, 1994 W Kansas City Chiefs Pittsburgh Steelers 27 24 boxscore
21 Sun January 16, 1994 W Kansas City Chiefs @ Houston Oilers 28 20 boxscore
22 Sun January 23, 1994 L Kansas City Chiefs @ Buffalo Bills 13 30 boxscore
23 Sat December 31, 1994 L Kansas City Chiefs @ Miami Dolphins 17 27 boxscore

I come up with 16-7 (.696).

Brady is 22-9 (.710).

 

[SammyBlueCat]

AS great as Joe Montana was, he seemed vulnerable and mediocre when he joined the Chiefs.
Let's not forget the role of the salary cap.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Longevity seems to be overlooked. Mark Rypien and Doug Williams both led the Washington Redskins to separate titles only to be forgotten a short time later.

Is Doug the only African-American QB to win a SB before Russell Wilson? So Cam would only be the third?

 

[dannydyn]

I can never get my head wrapped around the fact that people compare pre-salary cap era with post-salary cap era.... Montana wouldn't have had 4 rings if he played in a salary-capped league, I GUARANTEE it, and Don Fking Shula's 72' Sushi, wouldn't have gone unbeaten if they had to play 16 games PLUS 3 playoff ones.

Fcking Mediots.

 

[IllegalContact]

it's just **** for the media to banter about

 

[XLIX]

AS great as Joe Montana was, he seemed vulnerable and mediocre when he joined the Chiefs.

Ya people always act like the guy never lost a playoff game.

Please tell me how Brady losing SB42 is worse than Montana losing 49-3 in the divisional round in NY where he threw 2 interceptions before being knocked into the middle of next week by Jim Burt.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

it's a pervasive (and silly) view, and my counterargument has been:


4-0 in the SB is perfection, if you only played 4 years!

Since Montana played many more years than that, the question would be what was accomplished in his 5th-best and 6th-best seasons.

It was less than what Tom Brady accomplished in his 5th-best and 6th-best seasons.

/myth exploded

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Joe Montana's record vs. the AFC in Championship Games, 1981-89: 4-0

Jim McMahon, Phil Simms, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostettler, Mark Rypien, Troy Aikman, Steve Young, and Brett Favre vs AFC in Championship Games, 1984-96: 10-0

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Here's one way to look at how difficult it is to build a dominating dynasty in the modern sports world, where free agency, huge budgets, and overall competition has changed everything.

Take all the champion MLB teams after the Yankees won their last world series in 2000: 15.
Take all the champion NFL teams after the Patriots repeated in 2004: 11.
Take all the champion NBA teams after the Lakers three-peated in 2002: 13.
Take all the champion NHL teams after the Red Wings repeated in 1998: 17.

So, that's 56 teams that have won the championship in all four major sports leagues, since arguably the death of each league's last "dynasty".

Of 56 teams, all of whom are presumably a top contender and have the talent to repeat as champions, only the 2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers have repeated as a champion. 1 out of 56, less than 2%.

That's downright incredible. Particularly in the NBA, where in the past it was rare that a team didn't win it all the next season, but in all leagues. Teams have won 3 out of 6, 2 out of 4, etc., but just the fact that no one can repeat two years in a row goes to show how much more difficult it is now to stay on top. The huge majority of these teams didn't even make it back to the finals the next season.

 

[wheresmosi]

AS great as Joe Montana was, he seemed vulnerable and mediocre when he joined the Chiefs.
Let's not forget the role of the salary cap.

I wouldn't say mediocre. They got to the AFCC and lost, albeit soundly, to a very good Bills team. But they beat a much hyped Oilers team on the road. I had actually thought that was his last year, but apparently he came back for another year and got them back to the play-offs, where it looks like they lost to Miami in the first round. But I'd say he was at least high average or a bit better when he left the game, though I haven't looked at his stats. maybe that's the upper end of mediocre.

 

[wheresmosi]

I come up with 16-7 (.696).

Brady is 22-9 (.710).

Well, that's one way to judge it, I suppose. lol